Another Newb With A Fish In An Uncycled Tank

[fish_food]

Hello all,
 
I'm pretty new to fishkeeping, and have found myself with a goldfish (bubble-eye) in an uncycled tank.
He's pretty sick at the moment, and I'm not sure he'll survive, but if he does, I'm wondering what I should do.  His health has constantly been fluctuating, and I think it might have something to do with my uncycled tank, even though I perform regular (1-3 day) 15-20% water changes.
 
I don't have the option of taking him back to the shop or having a friend with a cycled tank look after him, and cycling the tank with him in it is going to be impossible, since he is hypersensitive to ammonia.
Would it be alright to set up a fishless cycle and transfer him in? 
Meanwhile, how often should I do water changes in the uncycled tank to keep him healthy?
 
I also have another small pond (repurposed bathtub) with 5 goldfish who seem to be doing fine.  I haven't cycled that either, but I'm wondering if I should?
 
Thanks for any advice.

 

[Akasha72]

fish in cycles are not impossible but they are hard work and they can take a long time. Firstly I'm not a goldfish keeper and my knowledge of goldfish is very limited but from memory they are high waste fish - which means high levels of ammonia and nitrite.
 
Secondly, have you got a test kit for this tank? If not, arm yourself with one and get one of the liquid dropper test kits as these are accurate. The test strips you can buy in the fish stores are very inaccurate. You'll need to look for a cold water kit ... I'm not sure if API do a cold water kit but we normally recommend the API masterkit - this is for tropical though. Have a look online and see if there is a cold water version. 
Once we know how things are looking on the water stats it'll be far easier to help you. In the meantime I'd up the amount of water you are changing to at least 50% and change that amount daily.
Once we know though how much ammonia and nitrite is in the water we'll be better placed to guide you.
 
I've done a fish-in cycle and it does take a long time - longer than a fishless cycle but it will get there. Are there any live plants in the tank? Live plants can help to take up some of the ammonia so that could give you a helping hand.
 
As to your pond ... ponds are something I know nothing about so I'll leave that to someone else with the right knowledge  

 

[fish_food]

I introduced some plants a week ago, but after a few days, he got really sick/weak.  I'm sure that cycling a tank with him in it will definitely kill him, since he is so sensitive to ammonia.  I have a liquid/drop ammonia test kit, and I am in the process of locating a nitrite test kit. I tested the water this morning, and it was 0.25 ppm.

 

[Vethian]

what about using some bacteria like Nutrafin Cycle?  Could that help out here?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

A fish in or a fishless cycle should take about the same time. The main difference is that with the fishless a tank is able to handle full stocking while in a fish in you have only completed step one which is a "partial" cycle. It will take a few more additions of fish done over more time before a tank will be fully stocked. At each addition there may be a mini-cycle. One controls the potential for this by controlling what number and size fish get added each time.
 
There is no absolute level of total ammonia that mean one needs to change water. What determines this is the amount of NH3 in any given total. Nitrite should be handled with the addition of chloride to the water.
 
The biggest problem with a fish in cycle is allowing ammonia to get too high in the first place. This will for sure harm fish and it also weakens them. And the result then is that even lower levels of ammonia now become an issue. So stretching things out will be more harmful than having done things right at the outset.
 
Most beginning fish keepers will not pull of a fish in cycle without harming or killing fish. And because most people now either do a fishless cycle or use heavy plating to do a "silent cycle," most people do not know how to pull off a fish in cycle safely.  I find the way to know if somebody offering help with a fishless cycle understands what is going on and what needs to be done will start by looking at NH3. If they are not doing this, they probably don't understand things.
 
Next, the exact same levels of total ammonia and NH3 do not have the same effect on different fish. Different fish have different tolerances for ammonia.
 
The upshot of all this is what you see in the two articles here on rescuing a fish in cycle. Note, neither of these articles are intended to provide a blue print for doing a fish in cycle. What they are is solutions to the problem that look to remove the fish or to add viable bacteria. And this doesn't mean any product which says it helps but rather the very few which actually contain the right bacteria.
 
fish_food, I strongly suggest  you read both articles in the the thread for Cycling which help with fish in cycling out of control.
 
Incidentally, cycling works the same in a 1 gal. bowl. a 500 gal. tank and a 5,000 gal pond the exact same way. Ammonia makes ammonia bacs colonize and the nitrite they produce makes nitrite bacs colonize. Ammonia and nitrite levels are not about the absolute amount of these things but the concentration. That is what the ammonia calculator on the site is all about- getting a desired concentration of ammonia into any body of water.
 
If you are trying to hold a fish in an uncycled tank, daily water changes are needed. If the tank is too small, they will be needed more often. In the case of your current fish you need to be doing huge changes, almost 100%. This fish will not likely survive if it has almost any level of ammonia present for any length of time. This is due to its poor condition.

 

[Ch4rlie]

TTA has covered all the points, I did start writing a long post, then saw TTA had posted then decided to scrap mine

 

what about using some bacteria like Nutrafin Cycle?  Could that help out here?

 
There are basically two products that are recommended for bacteria, first choice being Dr Tim's One and Only, second choice is Tetra's safe Start, both are proven to work though TSS can be a bit hit and miss, Dr Tim's by far is the most reliable source of bottled bacteria.
 
Though instructions on the bottle must be followed to the letter.

 

[fish_food]

pH 7.6+
Ammonia: 0.25 ppm
Tank size: 100L
 
Thank you for all the replies.  I have read the stickies and will look into buying a bottle of bacteria.  I bought a pH kit at my local aquarium, but they don't sell nitrite kits 

 
Would it theoretically be possible to cycle a smaller tank (25L) and transfer the bacteria + water into my current one (100L)?
Also, what filter media should I be using to cultivate bacteria?  I've read that carbon isn't good for this.  Would a sponge do or should I invest in filter gravel?
About changing 100% of the water everyday, I fear doing so will kill him, since he usually gets weaker after I change the water.  Funnily enough, I tested some tap water I had treated with dechlorinator and left to sit for 12 hours and it came out at 0.25 ppm for ammonia (API drop test kit).  Is this a fault with the kit or is it being contaminated somehow? I really don't know what to do at this point.
 
The fish in my pond will most likely be alright with a fish-in-cycle.  So I will start on that once I locate a nitrite kit.

 

[Ch4rlie]

First, the ammonia testing at 0.25ppm could be down to false reading / result possibly due to the dechlorinator or test kit itself. Try a diluted test and see if any difference.
 
Carbon, does not do much for cycling a tank, mostly it is used for removing any toxins or medication form the tank after treatments. I do not have any carbon in any of my filters, though I do keep some in a cupboard just in case.
 
Filter media, I tend to use coarse sponge media and also ceramic noodles.
 
   
 
 
You CAN cycle a smaller tank and transfer the filter media to the larger tank, this would help in adding more bacteria needed quicker.

 

[Akasha72]

not sure if it helps but I used to use API stresscoat to dechloriante and it always gave me a reading 0.25 ammonia. It was one of the reasons that I stopped using it

 

[Ch4rlie]

not sure if it helps but I used to use API stresscoat to dechloriante and it always gave me a reading 0.25 ammonia. It was one of the reasons that I stopped using it

 
Seachem Prime does this too, but only if you test within 5 - 10 of adding this to water then you may get false ammonia readings.
 
Think if you test water a few hours after adding prime or, as Akasha uses, API Stresscoat after water changes you should get nore accurate ammonia readings.

 

[fish_food]

I use Prime to dechlorinate which also has slimecoat-improving properties, so it might be something similar to what Akasha said.
Earlier I added in some salt, and his condition has improved slightly, he's eating now.
 
Did some research on bacteria in bottles, and it doesn't seem feasible to ship some over here due to import regulations.  My aunt has some established tanks (although I don't think she officially cycled them) so I'm going to borrow a filter sponge and hope for the best.  Should I quarantine/establish the sponge in a separate tank, or can I just put it straight in the filter?

 

[Akasha72]

I use Interpet TapSafe now and have no problems with it. I actually like it, it's cheap and easy to use and does the job

 

[fish_food]

 

not sure if it helps but I used to use API stresscoat to dechloriante and it always gave me a reading 0.25 ammonia. It was one of the reasons that I stopped using it

 
Seachem Prime does this too, but only if you test within 5 - 10 of adding this to water then you may get false ammonia readings.
 
Think if you test water a few hours after adding prime or, as Akasha uses, API Stresscoat after water changes you should get nore accurate ammonia readings.
 

That's the one!
 
 

I use Interpet TapSafe now and have no problems with it. I actually like it, it's cheap and easy to use and does the job

The lack of products sold here in Australia is truly infuriating.

 

[Akasha72]

if you can get your hand on an established sponge then do it - add it to the filter where ever it will fit. The bacteria on it will latch onto your non-cycled sponges and get your filter going. This is what we call seeding.
 
If you can also get a good handful of the brown gunky stuff that settles at the bottom of a filter you can wipe that all over your clean media and have it teeming with beneficial bacteria in seconds. If you do this you could be looking at an instantly cycled tank 

 

 


not sure if it helps but I used to use API stresscoat to dechloriante and it always gave me a reading 0.25 ammonia. It was one of the reasons that I stopped using it

 
Seachem Prime does this too, but only if you test within 5 - 10 of adding this to water then you may get false ammonia readings.
 
Think if you test water a few hours after adding prime or, as Akasha uses, API Stresscoat after water changes you should get nore accurate ammonia readings.
 

That's the one!
 
 

I use Interpet TapSafe now and have no problems with it. I actually like it, it's cheap and easy to use and does the job

The lack of products sold here in Australia is truly infuriating.
 


 
 
It's the same in the U.K compared to America. They have far better fish medications that we do and it is infuriating

 

[fish_food]

if you can get your hand on an established sponge then do it - add it to the filter where ever it will fit. The bacteria on it will latch onto your non-cycled sponges and get your filter going. This is what we call seeding.
 
If you can also get a good handful of the brown gunky stuff that settles at the bottom of a filter you can wipe that all over your clean media and have it teeming with beneficial bacteria in seconds. If you do this you could be looking at an instantly cycled tank 

I always thought you had to wait the full 7-9 weeks even for a seeded tank.  An insta-cycled tank sounds too good to be true!