Angel Stocking Compatability

[garyspence84]

Hi there. I posted in the welcome section... nit thought I'd post here too... even though I've been in the hobby for about 10 years or so... I still consider myself a beginner.

I currently have a 4foot (240 ltr) set up with 4 juvenile angel fish and am looking for ideas of what to keep with them.

Currently....

10 or so cardinal tetra
4 silver tip tetra
Boliaian ram
red tail shark
royal pleco

I'm rehoming all the tetra as I know the angels will eventually eat them once they get a bit bigger.

I'd like a sholing fish.. but not sure what to get... so any ideas are welcome!!

Also.... is 4 angels a good amount?? Should I add more? There still very young. . So now would b the best time I'd imagine, to add them.

Thanks for reading

 

[Akasha72]

Hi there... don't rush to re-home the tetra's ... take a look at my signature and see what I'm keeping with angelfish and all is well. My angels arrived after the smaller tetra's and harlequins and so they've grown up together. They've grown up seeing the smaller fish as family and not food. I've seen and heard of this done many many times with no issue. The problems generally arise when you try to add new small fish once the angels are adults ... new arrivals arn't family and so could  become food.
Recently though I added some new young harlequins and I added them with held breath as technicly my, now adult, angels could have just swallowed them whole but they left them be ... I got away with it and perhaps because they were the same as the harlequins they'd grown up with - I was just adding to the shoal and the new young harlequins just joined the older adults.
 
I keep my fish well fed - they have always been fed twice a day and so they know food is coming as so never get hungry enough to see smaller habitants as food.
 
I think you are sensible to be aware that the angels might decide to start eating the tetra's - being aware it could happen is sensible but I honestly think the likelihood of it happening is very very slim. I think seen as you are aware it's better to watch and wait. If the tetra's start disappearing one by one then re-home them. I would possibly look at adding to the silver tip number whilst the angels are still young as once they grow you could see a problem adding.
 
If you decide to re-home though and replace with another shoaler then look to the larger tetra's and the deeper bodied tetra's. Emperor's are good as they're too big to be food. They're also safe on the angels fins as they are not fin nippers. Some of the other tetra's can be nippy. I looked at black widow tetra's as they are deeper bodied but they are also notorious fin nippers and so whilst the deeper body was fin for the angels - the fin nipping wasn't.
 
On to the other stock - if anything needs to be re-homed from that list I'd look to the shark. It will eventually out grow the tank and it's also too aggressive and hectic in behaviour for the sedate angels. I think you will have problems in the future with this fish and it's best to re-home now if you can. See what other members think though ... don't just take my word for it.
 
The angels - I wouldn't add anymore for your tank size. I also have a 4ft tank (Juwel Rio 240) and had four angels. I ended up with a pair and 2 spare females, one of which turned aggressive to the others and so now I just have my pair. I would not have been able to accommodate any more angels as now they are adults it's obvious there just wouldn't have been enough space for territory. Should you get a pairing up you may find you have a difficult choice to make as I did. 
 
Hopefully that info is helpful for you. Good luck with the angels

 

[garyspence84]

Thanks @akasha72 really appreciate that... I think I'll still rehome the silvertips... not a fan... but I do really like the cardinals.... as do the kids!!

I Need to up the numbers of cardinals though....

so the shark may become a problem then?? Hmmm that's unfortunate!! Its also a juvenile too... I take it the "growing up together" rule might not apply here then?

thanks

Edited for spelling

 

[Akasha72]

all the shark species grow big and they are also on the aggressive side too - as one would expect. With the angels being a more sedate fish I think they will struggle to cope with the shark. I also think your tank is too small for this fish once it reaches full size. This is just my personal opinion though.
 
It's well known that in the wild the angels will naturally predate on neons. I have not heard of them predating on cardinals. I have heard of them making a rather expensive snack of new rummy nose tetra's though. It does seem a bit hit and miss.
The growing up together thing is well documented, although I have come across one or two members on this forum who have differing views. As I said in my OP, I'd be inclined to watch and wait. It's difficult to predict for sure what the angels will do to the cardinals and so if you wait it out and still have a full shoal in a years time then you know it was the right thing to do. If you are prepared and can obviously see that the number of cardinals are dwindling and can find no bodies then you know that the angels are snacking on them and then remove what is left - either to a seperate tank if you have one or to a fish store willing to take them in. Perhaps spend this interim time asking at your lfs if they are willing to home the cardinals should the need arise. Most good lfs will do this

 

[TwoTankAmin]

If by red tail shark you mean Epalzeorhynchos bicolor, then the max size for this fish is under 5 inches. That said, they can be nasty towards other inhabitants. Have a read hear regarding  Behaviour and Compatibility  http/www.seriouslyfish.com/species/epalzeorhynchos-bicolor/
 
Your bigger issue will be the royal pleco, with the exception of the blue-eye, Panaque cochliodon, all the other varieties of royals get to be almost 16 inches SL (i.e. without measuring the tail). The blue eye stays at under 12 inches SL but is quite pricey, so I doubt this is what you have. The panaques are wood eaters, so insure you have plenty of wood in the tank for it. Plan to rehome the fish down the road as a 240l won't really be big enough. You can find info on all the royals on Planetcatfish. When there, in the upper right part almost any page you will see a search box which says "catfish quickfind." Type in Royal Pleco and it will return all the varieties.

 

[garyspence84]

Sorry... I Don't know what kind of plec it is to be honest... but I do know that it's of smaller breed. I've had it almost 3years now and its still only About 3" long.. Including tail... so no worries there.

But I have to say... I'm saddned about my wee shark now.... not really the news I wanted to hear... but hey.... that's fish life haha

thank you both for your help really appreciated my friends
Oh... and thank you for the link!!! Really good, informative link

 

[Byron]

I completely concur with both Akasha and TTA on rehoming the specific fish.  In particular the so-called shark; this fish can get nasty like you might not believe, and they can take a dislike to other fish that seems ad hoc.  The pleco may be fine if it is a small species, though I personally would do everything I could to ascertain the exact species so you know.  This is also advisable for determining a proper diet, etc.
 
Silvertip Tetra are sometimes known to fin nip sedate fish--sometimes; as you only have four, the chance of this occurring is actually greatly amplified, because in such a small shoal the tetra will or may be stressed, and we now know from scientific studies that this almost inevitably increases the fish's aggression because this is the fish's only way to deal with such frustration and stress.  So removing the four rather than adding more with this species would be advisable.
 
As for the cardinal, angelfish will readily eat cardinal tetra just the same as neon tetra or the false (green) neon.  Generally, these species (Parachierodon axelrodi, P., innesi and P. simulans) should never be housed with angelfish.  Now, having said that, there are some who report no issues; but this cannot be guaranteed.  However, as you have the cardinals in a decent number now, I would leave them, but do not add more; the number is actually fine for this species which has been observed in the natural habitat to remain in shoals of hundreds when no plants (overhanging) and branches are present, to distinct groups of five when they are.  With luck, all will be well.  If you find they begin to get eaten (I have seen an angelfish that was about 2 inches in length easily stalk and bite half of a neon) then you can decide what to do, but I admit this may not happen, so up to you.
 
As for other shoaling fish you could consider, look at the disc-shaped characins, not the linear; these are always safer bets with angelfish.  One of my favourite is the Rosy Tetra, or the very similar Roberti Tetra; both are nicely coloured (reddish mauve).  There is also the Garnet or Pretty Tetra, Hemigrammus pulcher, rarely seen in NA for some reason but more common in Europe.  The Black or Red Phantom Tetra should be fine.  Bleeding Hearts might work sometimes, but here too we have a species that has often become nippy of fins when faced with such temptations as angelfish, so it might be best not; on another forum I once advised the same thing, and another member got BH anyway, then four months later had the courtesy to post that I had been right and they were now removed to save the angelfish's fins.  Hatchetfish usually work, but the species that are larger (those in the genera Thoracocharax and Gasteropelicus) are better than the smaller species in Carnegiella.  Corydoras catfish also work well with angelfish, once you get rid of the shark.  Aside from the "dwarf" species, any of the corys in the genus Corydoras are fine; those now in Scleromystax less so here as they can get a bit rough, and large.
 
Hope this is of some assistance.
 
Byron.

 

[garyspence84]

Thanks byron. That's great.
The silver tips were always going to b re homed... I've never liked them to be honest... but I do love the cardinals, so I'll keep them for the time being.

as for the red tail... so far, he/she's quite calm and tolerant of everything... although I do know this can/will change, so I'll keep any eye on it.

and the pleco... I got it from a friend a few years back... I've just sent him a txt asking if he remembers its spec... so once I find out I'll let you guys know.

thanks again my friends

 

[garyspence84]

The chap that gave me the plec said it was advertised as a 'chocolate striped' plec in the fish store, which he bought on the shop keepers knowledge, that it grew to around 6"...
does this sound about correct??

Cheers

 

[Byron]

The chap that gave me the plec said it was advertised as a 'chocolate striped' plec in the fish store, which he bought on the shop keepers knowledge, that it grew to around 6"...
does this sound about correct??

Cheers

 
We need the scientific name.  Common names can sometimes point us in the right direction, but only if they are rather universally common.  I just did a Google search of "chocolate striped plec" and up came dozens of different species.
 
But at this point since you have the fish, perhaps you could do such a search and track it down?  Once you have the scientific name, you can use one of a few sites that have reliable data, such as Planet Catfish or Seriously Fish.
 
Byron.