Advice

[BobbyBray]

So I'm kinda kicking myself for not reading up on a forum like this before I setup my fish tank! I didn't know about fishless cycling, and my LFS peeps didn't tell me about that of course. But anyway, here's my situation:
I've got a 29 gallon starter kit, and so far haven't had much luck with adding fish over the past month. I think my problem, like so many other new tanks lies in not have proper cycling system. I let the tank sit for a little more than a week before adding fish, but as I've found out too late, that doesn't do much on its own. The first two 'victims' were due to a terrible water exchange on my part. The next two were added later after I treated the water, but only one survived. The second died within 2 days.

The next two I added after that died within 3 days. Those I think may have been because of a slight ammonia spike from over feeding, but I also found out that my tap water seems to have a high concentration of copper. I've lowered it quite a bit with some chemical solutions from my LFS, and found out that my britta filter removes all the copper as well, so I'll be using that with all future water exchanges. The last partial water (25%) exchange pulled a bunch of crud from my rocks (again over feeding?) and seems to have lowered the ammonia back to 0.

I've got a test kit, and my levels all seemed ok for the past few days, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate at 0, and pH at 7.4~ish. (The lone survivor is a rainbowfish btw). So last night I got another rainbow and two cherry barbs. They were fine this morning, but I'll check the chemicals when I get home from work.

I know I'm not throwing out a lot of specific information, but I didn't know if anyone had suggestions to help the transition with new fish in a new tank. Should I slow / stop feeding them for a day to slow down the ammonia build up? Should I be doing water changes daily with new fish? Is it possible to change too much water too fast? Would a bottom feeder help eat a bunch of the extra food instead it becoming waste? My concern with a bottom feeder is that he may eat a lot of the heavy metals that would sink to the bottom and not survive. I'm just a bit concerned when 5 of my 6 fish introduced in the last month have gone belly up

Other info I can think of that may be helpful:
I've been using some ammonia neutralizing solutions during water changes.
Temperature is around 77-79º
Not sure what my water hardness is.
pH is about 7.4
Tank has been running for about a month, with one fish living fine for a about 9 days now
Tank is located in my kitchen, with no direct exposure to window drafts, or sunlight (shades are always drawn closed)
Copper in my tap water is being treated / neutralized
I've only been introducing fish 2 or 3 at a time
Filter has not been changed once
Chemical levels have been steady for the last few days, but I'll check tonight with new fish being added

Phew, that was a mouthful! Thanks for any advice you can offer!

 

[TigerIssey]

I've got a test kit, and my levels all seemed ok for the past few days, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate at 0, and pH at 7.4~ish.

Sorry to tell you but your tank is still not cycled. If it was cycled you would have a nitrate reading, it should not be zero. Do you know anyone with an established tank that would let you have some filter material from there filter to kick start your bacterial colony. Don't add any more fish yet. The ammonia neutraliser is not a good idea, im sure it will affect your cycle (others may clarify this). You will need to be doing daily water changes 25% ish maybe more to keep ammonia and nitrite levels down whilst you cycle. The cycle will also take longer as you will not be able to allow ammonia and nitrite to peak.
Is your test kit liquid or strips, the liquid ones are much more accurate and are advocated my many on this forum. There will be others along later today that will talk you through doing the fish in cycle now you have them however the fishless cycle is preferred as it is extremely hard on the fish to be present through cycling.

 

[BobbyBray]

I was afraid of that. I have a liquid test kit, so that's at least good news. I know two people with establish tanks, but one is out of the country, and the other is my GF who only has a 10 gallon tank, so I'm not sure I want to disturb a tank that small. How long (roughly) can fishless cycling take? Could I transplant my fish to my GF's tank for a week or two while I kick start my own?

 

[BobbyBray]

On a tangent, I'm a bit confused that my GF's tank (which I setup) hasn't had any problems at all. I did the exact same thing, no fishless / pre cycling process, didn't transplant cultured filters or anything else, and its a ten gallon which is suppose to be harder to take care of. Odd....

 

[BobbyBray]

Ok, so my ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels are all still 0 with a pH of 7.2~ish. I read the fishless cycling article and realize the huge error of my ways now. My next question then is if you guys think I could safely move my three remaining fish (rainbowfish x 2, cherry barb x 1) to her 10 gallon tank which has 2 small tetras, a small cory and small chinese algae eater. Sounds like I'm looking at at least 2 weeks to cycle my tank, but I suppose its better than consistently killing off fish. I just wish my LFS had clued me in to something like this, all they said was to run my tank for a week *sigh*

 

[TigerIssey]

Use a little filter medium from your gf's tank or scrape a little of the mulm stuff off one of the sponges onto your filter media. Put your fish in her tank, may need to watch water quality, do extra water changes. Then cycle yours using fishless cycling method. It should be quicker using filter media but general fishless cycling will take 1-6wks. Probably halve the time if you get a kick start. Get it all set up and start posting your water stats, that way any problems you can get some help.

If you don't want to mess with GF's media, run your filter in her tank as well as her filter for a few weeks, (or if filter big enough, put your media in her filter) this is known as cloning, you could read up on this on this site aswell.
Don't worry, many people are given bad advice by many people including fish stores. You have found this site, so you are making progress.

 

[BobbyBray]

I moved my three fish last night to the gf's tank, so I'll tell her to keep a close eye on them, and change the water soon. I'll get some supplies tonight on my way home from work to start cycling my tank. One question though, what exactly do you mean by filter medium? She's just got a small over the edge filter with those swappable filters filled with carbon, is that what you mean? Should I take hers and drop it in my tank, or in my filter to transplant some bacteria?
Thanks for the advice so far!

 

[TigerIssey]

One question though, what exactly do you mean by filter medium? She's just got a small over the edge filter with those swappable filters filled with carbon, is that what you mean? Should I take hers and drop it in my tank, or in my filter to transplant some bacteria?

There are 3 types of filter media

Mechanical - Sponges, fine filter floss
Chemical - Carbon, ammonia remover, phosphate remover
Biological - Usually chips with a porous large surface area.

Mechanical and Chemical filtration can also double up as biological filtration giving a surface area for bacterial growth.

Not all filters will have all three types of filter media (unless you run an external), however most will have some type of sponge where you can cut a piece off to seed the media in another filter. Hope this clarifies.

You should put a piece of her media inside your filter, or put your filter into her tank.

 

[BobbyBray]

Thats kinda what I figured, but I just wanted to double-check. Thanks!

 

[TigerIssey]

No problems, keep us posted.

 

[Lazerus]

Hi BobbyBray…welcome!

First things first….

In regards to your GF’s 10gal tank….how long has this tank being up and running? Weeks or months? Does she have 0 Ammonia & Nitrite readings always, and higher readings for Nitrate usually? (5ppm-20ppm)

This will determine if her tank is fully cycled or not and also how mature her filter is. (Remember...there are three phases…1. New, 2. Cycled, 3. Mature.

Using a small piece of medium (sponge) from her tank will be very useful but it really has to be mature (i.e. over 6months old) in order for it to be any real use in your tank however, anything you can get will be good at this stage.

You can add filter sponge to your own filter by simply getting a scissors and cutting some off hers (about a quarter is safe)….make sure you replace what you’ve taken from her filter with some new sponge so that her filter can re- seed itself too.

Adding your fish to her 10gal tank is going to hugely increase the biological load and therefore put an extra burden on her tank, probably sending it into a ‘mini cycle’ however, if her filter is mature (i.e. over 6 months old) then, it shouldn’t take too long for the bacteria to re-colonise and match the new load.

Either way, with daily water testing to ensure that ammonia & nitrite are at 0 always, (and if not, do water changes until they are at 0) this should take care of your fish and hers just fine while you are setting up your new tank.

Keeping on top of the water test is vital to the survival of your current fish ….remember; you must check the water daily or even twice daily just to be sure!

As TigerLily says, another very practical thing to do is to run your filter through the 10gal tank for a couple of weeks so that both filters can develop the good bacteria.

Doing all the above will buy you time and take the pressure off….and in the mean time you can be reading up and deciding how you are going to finish cycling your new tank.

Most importantly…don’t be tempted to buy any more new fish until everything has settled down and you are on top of the ‘cycle’ process….seriously! You’ll only be giving yourself way more work. I'm talking about 4 months here.

Keep reading, and re-reading the link about ‘cycling’ and post up any questions you may have. We are here to help!

Hope this helps.

(Edited because of my terrible spellings & missing words! Doh!)

 

[BobbyBray]

Her tank is not 6 months unfortunately, so I'll probably just leave her filter alone so as to not disrupt anything. And like you said the bio load will probably spike with the introduction of my fish as well. I forgot to bring my test kit along last night when I brought my fish over, but I'll test her water asap while I'm cycling my tank. Perhaps labeling it as 'my gf's tank' is incorrect. I've been the one stocking the tank, cleaning it and testing the water, it just so happens to be at her house, haha.

Just in case the new fish cause a bio overload, is there anything I could / should do to help the tank till the bacteria can grow? Should I add some ammonia neutralizing solution to help the bio load?

Does anyone else find it ironic that I actually thought a fish tank would be less work and responsibility than a dog or cat?

 

[Inchworm]

Hi BobbyBray

Since you've already moved your fish into her tank, wait a couple of weeks and the beneficial bacteria in her tank will have increased to include the addition. Then you can cut off enough of the media to use in your filter when you move your fish back. Just take an amount equal to the percentage of fish you are moving based on their size.

Or, if there's room in both filters, you could add some filter floss to her filter and then move it to yours when you move the fish. You will be doing the same thing but will not have to cut up a filter.

 

[Lazerus]

"Just in case the new fish cause a bio overload, is there anything I could / should do to help the tank till the bacteria can grow? Should I add some ammonia neutralizing solution to help the bio load?"

They most definitely will cause a bio overload, but don't panic....small % water changes will overcome the problem...that is the single most important thing you need to do right now.

You can safely get your fish through a 'mini-cycle' by doing daily 20% or so water changes.

When you add your fish to the 10gal tank, there will be more waste and therefore the ammonia will automatically go up, its inevitable ....but water changes will dilute this toxic water down to a level that the fish can tolerate...i.e 0pmm.

Make sure you de-chlorinate any water you add, and always test your water after a water change to make sure that the results are back down to 0ppm, if they are not, do another water change. The aim of the task is to keep ahead of the game, and make sure the water is always at 0ppm for both Ammonia & Nitrite until your filter has a chance to catch up.

For the first week or so, you may need to even do twice daily water changes to ensure that the ammonia stays at 0ppm, it might wreck your head, but to make a success of it, and keep your fish alive and undamaged from ammonia burning this is what you have to do. Sorry!!!

I did it myself when I started out so I know what I'm talking about! I made the beginners mistake of adding fish to a brand new tank, but thankfully with the help of the brilliant people here they got me though it and I still have some of those fish today.

Ok...good luck!

Edited to say....I didn't address the Ammonia neutralizing solution question....well, if it were me, I wouldn't add anything else to the tank, just plain ole de-chlorinated water when your doing you water changes...but perhaps someone else can vouch for Ammonia neutralising products? I've never used them myself.

 

[BobbyBray]

Funny you brought this up. I checked the levels of the small 10 gallon tank, and the ammonia wasn't 0, but it wasn't much higher than that. Nitrite on the other hand was higher than it should have been, and Nitrate was around 10~ish. So I immediately did a water change, and told the GF to do one everyday for the next week or so.

On a different note, one of the rainbowfish was swimming oddly around the tank. He was bobbing, sinking or drifting around like most of the other fish I've seen right before they die, but he seemed to have a curve in his spine. He was swimming strongly, but just oddly, almost like his body was constantly curved to the right slightly, but he could still swim straight just fine. He's still kicking this morning, so maybe he just got picked on in the tank? Seemed odd to me.