65 gallon tank stocking

[kamanut]

This is water straight out of the tap, and it does not go through any softener or filter, correct?

Correct. Straight out of the ground and thru my faucet.

 

[Byron]

Correct. Straight out of the ground and thru my faucet.

I am not a chemist so I cannot explain the difference in GH and KH, maybe @essjay can (or she can get her son to tell us!). I assume the numbers are degrees, so 1 dGH (very soft water) and 38 dKH (this I don't understand), and pH 8.

 

[kamanut]

Yeah, I don't know what to think of it. The GH turned color almost instantly after I added the second drop, but it took a TON of KH to get it to turn color. So frustrating. I drink the water and it doesn't have any issues as far as that goes.

 

[Essjay]

I have asked my son and he says he can't understand how they can be so different. His comments were - was the test done correctly, and is the tester in date - it may be newly bought but that doesn't necessarily mean it's in date. He also said, get it tested at a lab, but that would cost a lot (and he would say that, he used to work for one).

If it's well water, doesn't that have to be tested to make sure it's fit for human consumption? If it does, do those tests give the hardness and alkalinity (KH)? Can you get a sample of your tap water tested at an LFS and see if they come up with the same answer.

I know you said the water is straight from the well but in your first post you said it was hard so you have a water softening pillow. Are you 100% certain there is not something between the well and your tap which could change the GH?
And it was tap water you tested not tank water?

 

[kamanut]

I have asked my son and he says he can't understand how they can be so different. His comments were - was the test done correctly, and is the tester in date - it may be newly bought but that doesn't necessarily mean it's in date. He also said, get it tested at a lab, but that would cost a lot (and he would say that, he used to work for one).

If it's well water, doesn't that have to be tested to make sure it's fit for human consumption? If it does, do those tests give the hardness and alkalinity (KH)? Can you get a sample of your tap water tested at an LFS and see if they come up with the same answer.

I know you said the water is straight from the well but in your first post you said it was hard so you have a water softening pillow. Are you 100% certain there is not something between the well and your tap which could change the GH?
And it was tap water you tested not tank water?

Yes, test was done correctly. It took 38 drops to turn the KH from blue to yellow. The GH never showed a strong orange, and was green almost instantly. I have photos I took from each drop for GH. I just purchased the kits, but will check their expiration date. I would love to get it tested at a lab, but yeah...$$ so that's not happening.

We live in the middle of nowhere...trust me, nothing got tested. I have the printout from the guy that drilled the well that says the gph it puts out, but he didn't send the well info in to be an officially recorded well, and I've never done any testing on it.

We don't have any LFS's, but I could ask Petco or Petsmart (4 hours away one way) if they could test it and what they get, if I ever get to those towns.

I truly believed my water was hard...I grew up in this area and my parents always told us how hard the water is and it left white deposits on everything. I just assumed my well water (30 miles from where I grew up) would also be hard. But apparently I was wrong. I do not have a water softening pillow. I stated I bought a peat granule thinking I would need it for this tank, and obviously that was not something I needed or would help in any way with how high my KH is.

Lol, yes 110% certain there is nothing between my well and my tap other than just water pipes that I personally saw dug 6 years ago. This was tap water I tested. I have not tested the water that has been sitting in the tank for 5 days, but plan on it tonight.

 

[kamanut]

I can take a video re-doing the testing if you don't believe me. As a lab tech (in a hospital), I am pretty anal about making sure tests are done correctly.

 

[Essjay]

If you are a lab tech in a hospital you will be doing the test right. About 40 years ago, I was a hospital chemical pathology lab tech so I am aware you have to be accurate in the method.

My son worked for about 6 years as an analyst at a water testing company and cannot understand how GH can be so low and KH so high in the same water. Though he did admit that they did not use any of the units we use in fishkeeping - dH and ppm - for alkalinity so he is unfamiliar with them. I did say that the KH measured as dH is the same as what they called alkalinity, and that when my water company listed the alkalinity it was the same as my KH tester's number in dH.
He could not explain the difference, GH and KH are usually similar-ish.

 

[kamanut]

I'm so confused by this as well, especially as a science-based person who does understand the basic idea of all this. I am really considering sending in a sample to my state lab...do you think it would be worth it or do I just assume I have very soft water (can get a gh booster for that), with a pH of around 8.5 that is going to be VERY stable due to my incredibly high KH?

 

[kamanut]

This has been one of the most helpful articles I've read so far: https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/ph-kh-gh-tds.html

 

[Byron]

I'm so confused by this as well, especially as a science-based person who does understand the basic idea of all this. I am really considering sending in a sample to my state lab...do you think it would be worth it or do I just assume I have very soft water (can get a gh booster for that), with a pH of around 8.5 that is going to be VERY stable due to my incredibly high KH?

For my own piece of mind, I would want to know what is in my own water that I drink, cook with, etc, and especially for my fish. And yes, if the KH is really that high, the pH is not going to fluctuate.

A caution though on adjusting water parameters...until you know without doubt exactly what the GH, KH and pH of your water are, don't start adding this or that.

There are fish that must have moderately hard or harder water (livebearers are in this group), and their are fish that prefer soft water--some are mandatory, some species can manage with more "moderate" GH. But there is always the probability that if the soft water and hard water species are combined, there is no real "middle road." The mollies for example must have fairly hard water or they simply cannot function internally and they weaken, become susceptible to various problems, and die prematurely. Providing water hard enough to keep them healthy will be detrimental to many soft water fish as they will now have to work harder and struggle just to maintain their internal functions. They too weaken, and go downhill.

Once you are comfortably sure of the GH and KH, you can decide which fish you want and proceed. But it is always much easier to select fish that can live well in your water without adjustment. It makes water changes much easier (preparing large quantities of water externally before being able to use it in the tank is not as easy as it sounds), especially emergency ones. And you can do substantial volume water changes which improve fish health without being restricted by cost or inconvenience preparing it beforehand.

 

[kamanut]

For my own piece of mind, I would want to know what is in my own water that I drink, cook with, etc, and especially for my fish. And yes, if the KH is really that high, the pH is not going to fluctuate.

A caution though on adjusting water parameters...until you know without doubt exactly what the GH, KH and pH of your water are, don't start adding this or that.

There are fish that must have moderately hard or harder water (livebearers are in this group), and their are fish that prefer soft water--some are mandatory, some species can manage with more "moderate" GH. But there is always the probability that if the soft water and hard water species are combined, there is no real "middle road." The mollies for example must have fairly hard water or they simply cannot function internally and they weaken, become susceptible to various problems, and die prematurely. Providing water hard enough to keep them healthy will be detrimental to many soft water fish as they will now have to work harder and struggle just to maintain their internal functions. They too weaken, and go downhill.

Once you are comfortably sure of the GH and KH, you can decide which fish you want and proceed. But it is always much easier to select fish that can live well in your water without adjustment. It makes water changes much easier (preparing large quantities of water externally before being able to use it in the tank is not as easy as it sounds), especially emergency ones. And you can do substantial volume water changes which improve fish health without being restricted by cost or inconvenience preparing it beforehand.

I personally don't really care if I have hard or soft water for cooking or drinking. It tastes great and hasn't killed me yet in the 6 years I've been using it. It is interesting to me that I suffer from a magnesium deficiency, and my water is lacking Mg if it's that soft, so that might be part of my problem.

I won't be adding anything for now...but if my GH is truly 2...I figure raising it to 5 dGH is probably going to make for happier fish. There are few fish that are going to want water THAT soft, especially with a higher pH.

I definitely will be choosing fish that will mesh well with my water, but I do worry about my water being so soft, if that is truly the case. I have looked into a RO/DI system as well that I could mix with my regular tap water to lower the KH a bit.

Got the pH test at work, so I will be testing that tonight as well. Thanks!

 

[Byron]

I won't be adding anything for now...but if my GH is truly 2...I figure raising it to 5 dGH is probably going to make for happier fish. There are few fish that are going to want water THAT soft, especially with a higher pH.

Actually, most fish will be very happy with very soft water. I have had tanks of fish for over 30 years, and my source water is basically zero GH and KH, and I add nothing so it remains zero in my tanks. The pH lowers to levels like below 5 in some tanks, or around 6 in others. Each tank's biology can be a bit different, and I just let it do what it wants because with little or no intervention from me (aside from weekly substantial water changes) nature settles down and all is well.

I have fish from South America and SE Asia. None need harder water. I had livebearers and rift lake cichlids many years ago, and I used dolomite substrates which raised the GH and pH.

If your GH is at 2 dGH it is ideal for most all soft water species.

On the pH, when testing tap water, it may contain dissolved CO2 so we let this out-gas to get a more accurate reading. Sitting out 24 hours does this. Not necessary with aquarium water.

 

[kamanut]

Thank you @Byron , I will definitely consider just leaving my GH that low. It's more along the lines of 1 dGH...it never really turned orange in the test tube. Either way, very soft. Which I still find absolutely astounding.

Will my ridiculously high KH have a negative effect on fish or plants?

 

[Byron]

Thank you @Byron , I will definitely consider just leaving my GH that low. It's more along the lines of 1 dGH...it never really turned orange in the test tube. Either way, very soft. Which I still find absolutely astounding.

Will my ridiculously high KH have a negative effect on fish or plants?

Having zero KH I have never really delved into it too much, other than for a couple articles I wrote on another forum to help with the understanding of these terms. Here is what I said about KH:

Carbonate hardness is the measure of carbonate and bicarbonate ions; carbonates and bicarbonates are the salts of carbonic acid. It is sometimes referred to as Alkalinity [not to be confused with alkaline as in pH, something very different]. Carbonate hardness is also measured most often in either degrees (dKH) or parts per million (ppm), and the same formula to convert dGH to ppm and reverse also works for KH. KH is normally tied to the GH, since carbonate minerals include limestone, dolomite, calcium and calcite. Mollusc shells and coral are primarily calcium. Carbonate hardness is sometimes called “temporary hardness” because it can be removed from water by boiling which precipitates out the carbonates.

KH has some direct impact on fish; but it also “buffers” the pH by binding to additions of acids or bases, keeping the pH stable—or more correctly, preventing it from changing—and the higher the KH, the greater the buffering capacity. A simple way is to think of the buffer as a sponge that soaks up the acid being added; however, at some point it will become saturated, and further additions of the acid can then cause a sudden and very large fluctuation which is usually fatal to the fish. This buffering is why attempts to adjust (lower) the pH of hard water are dangerous and will fail unless the KH is first reduced.​

You might also find of interest a thread Back in the Fold started today and to which I just posted another article on TDS. All of this is of course related.
https://www.fishforums.net/posts/3845985/

 

[seangee]

I'm not a scientist and don't fully understand this so take it from whence it comes...

1. With a KH that high any attempts to reduce your pH chemically will fail and be dangerous for fish, the more acid you add the more it will bounce back
2. I have long believed that GH is the important measure and don't even test pH, letting it settle where it is - it is actually different in each of my 3 tanks
3. You can reduce the KH using ion exchange resins but I think you will find that frustrating and expensive. I believe boling may also reduce this (???). My tap water has dKH=18 and when I was using DI I chewed through filters at an alarming rate, although it was actually GH I was targeting. I ultimately switched to RO because my tap water has 50ppm nitrates so I was double filtering all my water before it got near my tank. So like @Byron I now have 0 dGH in my tanks and the soft water fish are thriving.

Most fish can tolerate a much wider range of pH than GH. The important thing is that it is stable (and your KH pretty much guarantees that). IMO your water is fine for soft water fish - to be on the safe side I would not buy expensive fish on day 1. In fairness I don't have any expensive fish anyway

Predicting how plants would react, or which plants would work, is a different matter entirely and way beyond my experience