29 Gal Tank Stocking Help!

[AngelaPhelps]

Hello everyone, this is my first time on these forums. I tried a previous fish forum but didnt quite get the answers I was looking for/they werent very active etc. 

I recently just set up a 29 gal planted tank and im trying to figure out what to put in it after it is done cycling. The tank will eventually have a carpet of dwarf hairgrass and java moss "trees" with driftwood. Its only been set up for a week now so it is not cycled yet, but im just pitching for ideas now so I can start keeping an eye out on what to look for. 

I would very much like to go with a well-rounded tank with a centerpiece fish or two. SO FAR, the list that im choosing from is:

Angels 
Gouramis
Glass (Ghost) Catfish
Hatchetfish
Kuhli Loach, zebra loach, any kind of loach etc (recommend me!)
Electric Blue Ram Cichlid and Angel Rams
Betta
Peacock gudgeon
Panda cory cats

This is just what I want to try to pick from, but I would not object to other ideas as well. Im trying to stay away from "easy" peaceful fish like mollies and platys, Id like to try my hand at something new. 

 I am particularly interested in the ram cichlids as well as the cats and angels. 

So far, what im coming up with as far as tank stock is:

-6 glass cats OR hatchetfish 
-5 kuhli loach OR 5 zebra loach OR 6 corys (undecided what kind of corys yet, want panda but believe they need cooler temps. Can I mix corys AND loaches or can it only be one or the other for a 29g?)
-2 electric blue rams/angel rams OR 1 angelfish OR a pearl/honey/gold/opaline etc gourami pair "centerpiece fish" (do genders matter? Im seeing different things on this. I would love any centerpiece fish recommendation. I am iffy on the rams now knowing that they need higher temps, not sure what they can go with)
-1 peacock gudgeon (maybe?)

Also, my tank is going to have a dwarf hairgrass carpet. Is that going to affect having bottom dwellers?

How is that so far? I still need to fill in the blanks on what else I can stock with these choices. At first I really wanted rams, but im really starting to love the idea of loaches more than the rams so I may pick them over the rams if it comes down to it. My LFS recently got zebra loaches in and I fell in love, but I would also like kuhlis or a cory school too. Id love to do a mix of both but I dont think that is recommended? Glass cats are just neat, but I am unsure of if a school would go well with the loaches/a centerpiece fish. Im iffy on the gouramis being a centerpiece fish but they seem like the smarter choice so far compared to what everyone is saying. 
Im not too keen on tetras or rasboras as I am seeing them on every list so far. Also not interested in any sort of pleco. I mainly just want a tank of interesting uncommon fish, to me tetras, mollies, platies, etc are a bit boring. 

Bare with me haha, im still learning and doing research.

 

[zagfuchs]

Sounds to me like you have some good ideas going. For a centerpiece fish, I would steer away from the Angels with a 29 gallon, they deserve a longer aquarium to swim back and forth in. I loved the Blue Rams that I had, they are very interesting little fish with a lot of personality. You could also put a female Betta in with a pair of the Rams and should have no problem, mine got a long fine. You also should have no problem mixing Cory's and Kuhli's, they will have a great time foraging through the dwarf hairgrass. The Glass Cats on top of the Cory's and Loaches is probably too much for a 29 gallon though since they are bottom fish. The Hatchetfish on the other hand will stay closer to the top so some of those guys should work good. All of the fish you have listed will really enjoy the planted tank. Hopefully we get to see it soon! Good luck!

 

[dopieopie]

I would say you could probably get away with 5 hatchet fish, alternately von Rio tetras (I love the little guys) 5 kuhlis, a pair of rams, and a honey gourami.

 

[Munroco]

Please avoid angel rams, they are basically fish bred for their deformed body shape. To my mind is a horrible practise.

 

[NickAu]

 
You also should have no problem mixing Cory's and Kuhli's, they will have a great time foraging through the dwarf hairgrass

I would disagree, In my opinion you should only have 1 species of bottom dweller, I had Kuhli Loaches and had Corys, and the Loaches did not like the Corys they started hiding and the Corys were out competing them for food. I rehoused the Corys I love my Loaches.
 
If you go with Kuhli Loaches give them lots of cover and places to hide, and they will come out into the open more, They truly are cool fish.

 

[Ninjouzata]

Do you know if you have soft or hard water? If you don't you can check your water company's website or give them a call.
If that doesn't help you could also pick up a gh/kh liquid test kit. You want to make sure if the fish will be suited to your water

 

[AngelaPhelps]

Thanks for all the responses! This definitely helps in my decision of what I want to put in the tank.
 
Didnt think about that bit with the gh/kh. I have an API master test kit but it does not include gh/kh so I will have to seek that out. I do believe though that my water is probably hard though, as most water in my city registers as hard. I AM however on well water though so I dont know if that will make a difference, I always just assumed that fish can typically do ok with whatever water hardness and PH so long as it doesnt fluctuate, but im getting the vibe that this is a false belief?

Its sounding like the corys with loaches is a general no-go, but what about zebra loaches with the khuli? Maybe 3 or 4 each or what numbers would you recommend for the bottom dwellers? Or, if its recommended that I only stick with one variety of loach/bottom feeder, then how many should I have in a school?

Im getting a lot of different responses (from here and also different forums) on an angel as a centerpiece fish. If I cant do the rams, then an angel would be my next go-to centerpiece fish. I would really like to do one if I can make it work, so that would mean no panda corys since im hearing that they are a cooler water fish while the rams/angels are warmer water. Im leaning towards no corys in general because I really like the idea of loaches more anyway, if they cant be mixed.

Id love to make the rams work but it sounds like there are a lot that they cant go with. Angel rams seem controversial due to their breeding but man they are pretty. IF I were to do a ram pair, what would you recommend I stock with them? Or should I just not do them at all? (im hearing different things from different forums)

 

[Byron]

Welcome to TFF.
 

Didnt think about that bit with the gh/kh. I have an API master test kit but it does not include gh/kh so I will have to seek that out. I do believe though that my water is probably hard though, as most water in my city registers as hard. I AM however on well water though so I dont know if that will make a difference, I always just assumed that fish can typically do ok with whatever water hardness and PH so long as it doesnt fluctuate, but im getting the vibe that this is a false belief?
 

 
Yes, in answer to your last question in this paragraph.  I won't go into the science now, but the GH (which is the level of dissolved minerals in water) significantly affect fish.  Each species of freshwater fish has evolved over thousands of years to function best in very specific water, and while some species have some adaptability (this depends upon several factors), there are many that do not.  Some fish may "manage" in less than preferred parameters, but this takes its toll.  And since adjusting water parameters (thinking GH, KH and pH) is not always an easy matter, it is much safer and easier to select fish suited to your water parameters.
 
If you were on municipal water you could check the parameters with them.  I am assuming your well is private, so a test of the water is needed.  One of your local fish stores might do this for you (most will do it free), but if you do, make sure you get the number.  Too often fish stores say the water is "OK" or medium" or something which is totally useless.
 

Its sounding like the corys with loaches is a general no-go, but what about zebra loaches with the khuli? Maybe 3 or 4 each or what numbers would you recommend for the bottom dwellers? Or, if its recommended that I only stick with one variety of loach/bottom feeder, then how many should I have in a school?
 

 
There are several factors at work here.  First, we have fish that are termed shoaling (some people call them schooling); these species absolutely must be in a group, though the numbers considered minimum sometimes vary depending upon the species, but generally six is about the least but more is almost always better for the fish.  Once again I will not digress into the reasons, except to say that it is an essential aspect of the fish's health to provide adequate numbers for the species.  Generally, the more fish in the group, the healthier and "happier" they will be.
 
Corys and loaches are shoaling fish.  Corys are about as peaceful and harmless as any fish in our tanks, but they must have at least five, but preferably more when space permits.  Loaches are highly social fish, and with these there is an added aspect and that is hierarchy within the group.  Too few and not only are the fish ill at ease, they will also likely be more aggressive and subordinates can easily be hounded to death.  I personally would not mix loaches and corys.  I know others do, apparently with no problems, but unless the tank is very large, and depending upon the loach species, this is probably not a good idea.  Also keep in mind that you will usually see corys out and about continually, but some loaches, including the kuhlii, are more nocturnal or tend to prefer hiding away more.
 

Im getting a lot of different responses (from here and also different forums) on an angel as a centerpiece fish. If I cant do the rams, then an angel would be my next go-to centerpiece fish. I would really like to do one if I can make it work, so that would mean no panda corys since im hearing that they are a cooler water fish while the rams/angels are warmer water. Im leaning towards no corys in general because I really like the idea of loaches more anyway, if they cant be mixed.
 

 
Angelfish are shoaling fish.  However, this brings issues...males are very territorial, and a group (which must be minimum five) in a 4-foot tank is the minimum, except that pairs will undoubtedly form (angelfish like most cichlids form bonded pairs) and this may require moving everyone else out of the tank.
 
A 29g is not sufficient space for a group.  A bonded pair might work, on its own.  Single angelfish is something I do not recommend; this is by nature a shoaling fish, and denying a fish what nature has programmed it to expect is not the road I believe in taking if we care about the fish.
 
Rams would work here.  But yes, they do require warmer water, around 80F.  There are very few corys that can handle this, and other upper fish which you would want as "dither" fish will have to be warm water too, and that is not easy to find.  Most "tropical" fish prefer it in the mid to upper 70's, and temperature drives the fish's physiological metabolism so it is extremely important.  All species in a given tank must share similar parameters, be it GH, pH or temperature, or someone will be continually losing and this causes stress and disease.
 

Id love to make the rams work but it sounds like there are a lot that they cant go with. Angel rams seem controversial due to their breeding but man they are pretty. IF I were to do a ram pair, what would you recommend I stock with them? Or should I just not do them at all? (im hearing different things from different forums)
 

 
The "Ram" includes two natural species, the common or blue ram (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi), and the Bolivian Ram (Mikrogeophagus altispinosa).  The various man-made colour varieties like the German Blue, Balloon, Gold, etc are from the common ram.  This is the species that needs warmth; the Bolivian is fine at more normal tropical temperatures.  The Bolivian is not as striking perhaps, but it is a lovely community cichlid, one of the best.
 
You want a small group, or a bonded pair, or a single ram.  Males are very territorial.  It is usually best to observe the fish in the store tank and spot a likely bonded pair and acquire those.  IF you get a group, once they do begin to pair, separation may have to be done, especially in a tank as small (to the fish) as a 29g.
 
I won't go into possible tankmates, as it depends upon which ram.
 
Last comment is on your last sentence.  Anyone can start up a web site and disseminate "information," that may be accurate or may be rubbish.  There is no way to know, except knowing the reliability of the source.  On forums, everyone has their opinion, and what each of us says is subject to peer review in a sense.  But keep in mind that some aquarists will "experiment" if you like, and if the fish survives, assume the experiment was OK.  But we want fish to thrive, in other words to "live" rather than "exist," and that takes considerable planning and research [see the blue and green citations in my signature].  Nothing is as important as the research.  When we bring home a living fish and put it in an aquarium, we become responsible for a living creature, and the fish can do nothing but accept what we give it; but being a fish, this has serious consequences for its health and life.
 
Byron.

 

[zagfuchs]

@Byron Just curious of how one would know the difference between if the fish is "thriving" or "surviving". I will admit I have "experimented" with fish in conditions that may not be exact to their water requirements or with "suitable" tank mates, but wouldn't one have to consider that all fish may not prefer the exact same thing. I always hear people say that fish have personalities and I have had fish that I believe that about, would it be crazy to think that a fish may prefer the new conditions. The fish would not know until it was submitted to those conditions though. Not saying we should go out and just start dropping random fish in to tanks, but maybe there is something there if people have had success with their setups. I am just inquiring because the Cory's and Loaches that I had did not act like they were scared or stressed, they did not lose any color or get any diseases. Is there other factors to watch for besides appearance and behavior when determining if your fish is "thriving" or "surviving"? Hopefully this is not too far off topic.

 

[Byron]

@Byron Just curious of how one would know the difference between if the fish is "thriving" or "surviving". I will admit I have "experimented" with fish in conditions that may not be exact to their water requirements or with "suitable" tank mates, but wouldn't one have to consider that all fish may not prefer the exact same thing. I always hear people say that fish have personalities and I have had fish that I believe that about, would it be crazy to think that a fish may prefer the new conditions. The fish would not know until it was submitted to those conditions though. Not saying we should go out and just start dropping random fish in to tanks, but maybe there is something there if people have had success with their setups. I am just inquiring because the Cory's and Loaches that I had did not act like they were scared or stressed, they did not lose any color or get any diseases. Is there other factors to watch for besides appearance and behavior when determining if your fish is "thriving" or "surviving"? Hopefully this is not too far off topic.

 
This is a very pertinent question, but before doing my best to respond, I will start on the corydoras/loach combination.  I am not saying that this is impossible or prone to failure.  It is just my opinion that it is not the best situation.  Loaches have strong territorial instincts, and this is something that corydoras fish have difficulty coping with in other fish.  I believe such a situation could--not would but could--cause stress to one or the other, and as I hope to demonstrate in what follows, this is the real issue.  First I'll relate a couple of illustrations.
 
Soft water fish have often been said to be adaptable to harder water, and the fact that they live for "x" number of years proves it.  But this doesn't stand up to scrutiny.  A study in Germany back in the 1980's was able to ascertain that the fish's lifespan could be directly related to the GH of the water.  Cardinal tetra were dissected upon death, and found to have died from calcium blockage of the kidneys, something that is externally not observable.  Furthermore, the lifespan was related to the level of the GH; the harder the water, the shorter the lifespan.  There should be no doubt but that this is applicable to other soft water fish whose physiology is the same.
 
Shoaling fish are known to require groups, but until quite recent studies were carried out we didn't necessarily realize that being kept in smaller groups increased aggressive tendencies in all fish tested, which included angelfish, a couple tetras, and others I can't remember offhand.  The study concluded that when faced with an environment (which includes the shoal size in an aquarium) that was un-natural to the fish, it suffered severe stress and reacted in the only way it can, by becoming frustrated (in human terms) and thus aggressive--the fish was literally lashing out.  Sometimes the opposite occurs, and the fish becomes so withdrawn it weakens and dies.  It is not surprising that these are the two ways all fish react to stress, whether it be caused by too small a tank or inappropriate environmental factors.  Stress weakens the immune system and other processes, and causes a shorter lifespan.
 
In all of this, we can only assume that a fish will behave according to the norm for the species, and we have plenty of evidence as to what is normal for most species.  As soon as you introduce stress, things begin to go wrong.  Biology Online defines stress thus:
 
The sum of the biological reactions to any adverse stimulus—physical, mental or emotional, internal or external—that tends to disturb the organisms homeostasis; should these compensating reactions be inadequate or inappropriate, they may lead to disorders.
 
Homeostasis is defined as “the tendency of an organism or a cell to regulate its internal conditions, usually by a system of feedback controls, so as to stabilize health and functioning, regardless of the outside changing conditions.”  Physiological homeostasis, or physical equilibrium, is the internal process animals use to maintain their health and life: “the complex chain of internal chemical reactions that keep the pH of its blood steady, its tissues fed, and the immune system functioning” (Muha, 2006).  Stress is caused by placing a fish in a situation which is beyond its normal level of tolerance (Francis-Floyd, 1990).  Stress makes it more difficult for the fish to regulate the normal day-to-day physiological functions—the homeostasis—that are essential to its life.  Dr. Loiselle's [he is an ichthyologist, well known to many hobbyists] citation in green in my signature is relevant to this discussion.  We can know full well how fish like any animal is likely to react in a given situation.  If the fish seems to be managing, there is probably damage occurring psychologically and/or physiologically.
 
We must remember that all freshwater species evolved to function best in a very specific environment, and that involves water parameters, habitat features, other fish species, food, predators, etc.  What nature programmed into each species is not something we can easily or readily change except by prolonged continuing evolution.  Polar bears cannot "thrive" in a desert; this example is not as extreme as one might at first think.  Today we are seeing strange behaviours from polar bears in the Arctic, and I do not disbelieve those who say this is because the warming of the earth is affecting the bears.  Their ability to cope is limited, and the stress is affecting their homeostasis.  Fish are no different.
 
The value of research before acquisition is instrumental in doing what we can to ensure a fish thrives rather than simply manages.  I am fortunate to have a dedicated fish room with eight aquaria at present.  I will never acquire any fish species that I do not know well, not necessarily from past experience but more from scientific research.  Only once have I had to return a newly acquired fish, but several times I have had to move them through two or sometimes more tanks; clearly they were not "thriving" where it was, or the existing fish ceased to "thrive" because of them.
 
Some of the above I excerpted from an article I authored a couple of years back, hence the references.  I can provide these and more detail if asked.  Byron.

 

[zagfuchs]

Thank you Byron, some very helpful information you have there. There is so much conflicting information out there it can get difficult to discern what advice to follow. Most people probably don't think about the fact that a fish can be psychologically stressed out. Although it sounds almost like the only correct route to take is a biome setup, anything less than that seems like it would have the ability to inflict some form of stress on the fish.
 
P.S. I would love for you to send me any information you have, I enjoy learning all I can.
 
Sorry Angela, I didn't mean to hijack your thread, hopefully all this information helps you too. I look forward to seeing what you come up with, keep us posted!

 

[AngelaPhelps]

First I would like to apologize for my lack of response, I went on vacation for a few days when I made this post and hoped to come back to my take fully cycled, which it is now! 

 
Lots of valuable information here! I learned a lot just reading through the posts, particularly from Byron. What I am gathering is that I need to find out my exact water params to determine what fish I should stock. Not a bad idea for sure, I will definitely look into it more in the morning when I can get my hands on a gh test kit. 
 
Aside from that, assuming my water is do-able for the fish I want, what Ive got so far is that I CAN do a pair of rams (electric blue), I CAN but probably SHOULDNT do a cory/loach mix, NO angels, possibly some corys but NO panda, and I could possibly do a gourami or two with the ram pair? (according to dopieopie, would like clarification, also what kind of gourami)
 
So far what my tank stock is looking like is:
 
2 Electric Blue Ram Cichlids (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi)
6 kuhli loaches OR zebra loaches (OR maybe even small schools of both-/4 each but it sounds like a risk so I may just go with one or the other)
1 Peacock gudgeon (clarification?) OR possibly 1-2 gourami (again, clarification) 
6-10 various assorted fill-in-the-blank "dither" fish-  Maybe the hatchetfish, tetras, livebearers, etc. Open to suggestions. Learn me some fish.

 
I still have a bit of confusion and a lot of fill-in-the-blank, but how is this so far? Im just learning about the purpose of dither fish but after a bit of research I understand their purpose. That being said, if I can find fish that stock well with the rams, I'd like to do that as im pretty sold on them, and rams do best with fish that make them feel comfortable in the environment. I can suck it up and get the easy/peaceful fish if it means I can do the rams.

 
Now, my next important question is this. Say I go with this list, in what ORDER do I stock the tank in and is there a particular way I should go about doing it? Or can all these fish be stocked at any given time (provided I wait a week or two between adding a pair). Say my LFS gets a shipment of a particular fish I want on the stock list that they dont typically get, and I happen upon it one day and get excited, am I safe to purchase it if its my first/last fish left to stock? Im unsure of the hierarchy in fish, if I should add a certain species before I add another and vice versa. And also, for fish that are schooling, is it best to add the whole school at once, or add them pair by pair and let them school up over time as to avoid stocking the tank too quickly and risk off-balancing my parameters?
 
Sorry for all the questions! 

 

[Byron]

I will offer some general responses while we're waiting for the water parameter numbers.
 
Gourami covers many species, and some are definitely not possible because they are too large, but there are many that might be.  These are soft water fish, and some will be fine in moderately harder water.  Rams need more warmth than some other tropicals, so having these will impose temperature considerations.  Deciding on fish for a community aquarium is involved as it takes into account several factors.  Hatchetfish for example will work with rams, but not so well with gourami because gourami spend most of their time near the surface and it is better not to mix such fish with hatchets, even if a peaceful gourami species.
 
It does matter which order fish are introduced, to some extent.  Some fish are better going in later, either because they are more territorial and thus tend to settle in better when other fish are already settled, or because they may do better in a more biologically established environment.  "Established" means the aquarium has been running for a few months so the biology has fairly well settled; cycling refers to the initial establishment of the nitrification bacteria which is the first step in establishing an aquarium.
 
With shoaling fish that require groups, the entire group should be introduced together whenever possible.  Some species may develop a pecking order and this helps with that, but even with the most peaceful fish, adding a larger group rather than individuals will allow them to settle in much faster, which avoids additional stress.
 
Byron.

 

[AngelaPhelps]

Thanks for that info.

 
I have some numbers now! I tested pretty much everything with an API liquid master test kit, HOWEVER, the ONLY gh/kh test I could find came in the form of API strips, which I understand arent typically accurate. I guess it will give me a good ballpark though, my LFS didnt have any other options.
 
Anyway, my params are as follows:
 
BEFORE w/c:
pH: 7.6
Ammonia: 0.20 
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5
 
AFTER 50% w/c- currently:
pH: 7.6
Ammonia: 0.20
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 3 
GH: 140 (strips)
KH: 180 (strips)
Not much has changed except for a very slight nitrate reduction. However, I DID add Microbe lift special blend bacteria after the WC.
 
Untreated plain tap water:
pH: 7.2
Ammonia: 0.20
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
GH: 140 (strips)
KH: 180 (strips)
 
I probably tested more things than I needed, but oh well lol. I like to be thorough.
 
Now, what about the use of water softener pillows or other softeners? Is that something I could use if I wanted soft water fish? 

 

[Byron]

Your water GH at 140 ppm (= 8 dGH) is good, sort of on the border of soft water/moderately hard water.  Most soft water fish will have very little issue with this.  Water softening is not easy, and the only safe way to do it, if one has to, is by diluting the tap water with "pure" water such as rainwater (if otherwise safe to use), reverse osmosis or distilled water.  But once you go down this road, you are having to prepare water for every water change, and that can be a nuisance, and in an emergency (which can happen) a major water change becomes very difficult.  I would suggest leaving the tap water as is, and you should be able to find suitable fish without difficulty.
 
Numbers look very good.  The tap water pH I would suggest may be closer to the tank; remember that when testing tap water on its own for pH, you must ensure any CO2 is driven out.  Letting a glass of water sit 24 hours will do this, or very briskly agitating/shaking the water for several minutes.  But a coup-le decimal points is not an issue anyway.
 
The ammonia seems to originate in the tap water, but it is so low this is not going to be an issue.  Once the tank is cycled and running, the bacteria will easily deal with this, and live plants even moreso.
 
Any of the fish you mention in post #12 should have no difficulty with your water.
 
Byron.