2025 MLB

[jaylach]

YEA! May only be spring games and none count but it is still baseball!

I really didn't follow what Cleveland was doing during the off season but some changes they made I would never have expected.

 

[jaylach]

LOL! Well so much for the thread for MLB 2025 I already started but is fine.

Some thing bothers me with what the Tribe did. They got rid of Josh Naylor and brought back, soon to be 39, Carlos Santana. Short term this is actually probably a plus as to defense at first base but I still don't get it. Sure Santana's defense seems to improve every year winning a gold glove last season. He also has more raw batting power than Josh but he just strikes out too much for me to see him fitting Cleveland's offense. Hopefully I get proven wrong...

 

[Ceez]

Roki finally got his first action yesterday against the Reds. He came in to start the 5th inning. He pitched 3 innings, gave up 2 hits, a walk and struck out 5. His best fastball clocked 99.3mph and his split finger produced 7 swing and misses out of 8 attempts throwing it. The kid was electric and is only 23 years old. He did dodge 2 near homeruns that went just outside the foul poles on either side of the field but hard contact on anything in thr 95+ mph range is gonna get driven far.

Gonsolin also looked outstanding in his 1st start of the spring as did Blake Snell. This dodgers staff is loaded. Snell, Yamamoto, Glasnow, Ohtani, Sasaki, May, Gonsolin, Knack, Grove (out this year), Miller, Kershaw are all candidates to start. The bullpen is utterly ridiculous too with the additions of Tanner Scott (hahahhaa screw you Padres) and Yates.

Something is wrong in dodgerland though. They have the worst history of keeping pitchers healthy in the last 7 years and last year was no different throwing bullpen games in the playoffs. Is it something in the water? Is it the coaching/training staff? I've read a few articles addressing pitchers being taken out sooner than they used to over the last few years, giving them the perception that they can throw harder with higher spin rates since they wont throw as many pitches. They're starting to link data towards this idea that this may in fact be the culprit. The pitch clock has also been linked but there's not enough data since it hasn't been used long enough.

Supposedly they're gonna roll with a 6 man rotation this year to lighten the load to see if it reduces injuries and to get a read on the progress of their youngsters. It should be interesting.



Hard to watch Francona sitting in the reds dugout, wish he was the Dodgers manager. I can't stand Roberts.


@jaylach what's going on with the tribe? You guys did better than expected last year, did they grab any FAs this offseason?

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[EagleTime1989]

Go Cubs Go

 

[jaylach]

Not sure how I feel about this but Tyler Naquin is back in the Guardians organization under a minor league contract. He was a rookie stand out outfielder with Cleveland years ago but isn't trying to come back as an outfielder; he is trying to come back at 33 years old as a pitcher. There is no doubt that he has the arm to be a power pitcher throwing high nineties to possibly even a hundred but there is just a lot more to pitching than throwing hard. Still he has no impact on the main Cleveland team as it is just a minor league contract.

Currently listening to the Cleveland/Arizona game. Cleveland's catcher Bo Naylor just hit his second homer in consecutive innings.

 

[Ceez]

Not sure how I feel about this but Tyler Naquin is back in the Guardians organization under a minor league contract. He was a rookie stand out outfielder with Cleveland years ago but isn't trying to come back as an outfielder; he is trying to come back at 33 years old as a pitcher. There is no doubt that he has the arm to be a power pitcher throwing high nineties to possibly even a hundred but there is just a lot more to pitching than throwing hard. Still he has no impact on the main Cleveland team as it is just a minor league contract.

Currently listening to the Cleveland/Arizona game. Cleveland's catcher Bo Naylor just hit his second homer in consecutive innings.

Rick Ankiel had a similar story but opposite, started as a pitcher than moved to the outfield. He started to rake too which was fairly remarkable

 

[jaylach]

Rick Ankiel had a similar story but opposite, started as a pitcher than moved to the outfield. He started to rake too which was fairly remarkable

Another that went from pitching to outfield was that little known player that went by something like Babe Ruth.

 

[Ceez]

Another that went from pitching to outfield was that little known player that went by something like Babe Ruth.

Who dat?...



Yea but the Babe wasn't obscure like these other guys. He's arguably the most legendary mythical baseball player ever.


How do you feel about teams using deferrals? Now that the Dodgers have really kicked the door wide open on them and a few others teams are following suit is it gonna become more part of the norm moving forward? Or....is baseball gonna try and implement a salary cap? Last time they tried we had a work stoppage and the owners caved. How do you see that playing out this time?

 

[jaylach]

Who dat?...



Yea but the Babe wasn't obscure like these other guys. He's arguably the most legendary mythical baseball player ever.


How do you feel about teams using deferrals? Now that the Dodgers have really kicked the door wide open on them and a few others teams are following suit is it gonna become more part of the norm moving forward? Or....is baseball gonna try and implement a salary cap? Last time they tried we had a work stoppage and the owners caved. How do you see that playing out this time?

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a cap to make things more even for the small market teams but don't know what affect it would have, if any, on deferrals.

 

[Ceez]

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a cap to make things more even for the small market teams but don't know what affect it would have, if any, on deferrals.

I don't want a cap. If anything they need to make a salary floor.

The CBT for 2025 is $241m. The majority of these owners are in fact billionaires who are treating a pro sports league like a business instead of trying to compete. They live on the welfare of teams like the Met/Dodgers/Yankees/Phillies etc and in my opinion have zero room to complain about teams spending millions while they do absolutely nothing in free agency and won't commit long term money to top players. If you buy a pro sports team it's your responsibility to the league and the fans to field a competitive team and the league should vet new owners accordingly.

I think a salary floor of minimum 60% of the CBT should be in order with the same ramifications for going under applying as going over the CBT:

1st year under 60% of the CBT = 20% of the total amount under

2nd year under 60% of the CBT = 30% of the total amount under

3rd year under 60% of the CBT = 50% of the total amount under


This would insure teams are actually trying to field a competitive roster and not trying to make money on the league while producing a piss poor product essentially taking advantage to make money.

Also, baseball has more parody than any other sport regardless of how much you spend. That's a fact. If that wasn't the case the Dodgers should have won 7-8 WS titles in the last 13 years and the Giants none.

Teams like the A's/Rays are a disgrace to the rest of the league. They're not pulling their weight because they won't spend to keep their own prospects who make it to the show long term. The rays have had a litany of talent march right out the door year after year because they simply won't spend. Their attendance numbers are atrocious and deservedly so.

I could post factual example after example showing why cheap teams aren't competitive and essentially cancer/welfare recipients to the rest of the league but you get the idea. Sure markets are different, TV contracts arent all created equal etc but....small market teams have huge diehard fan support when they're competitive.

This is the biggest problem imo.

 

[jaylach]

I don't want a cap. If anything they need to make a salary floor.


View attachment 363204

View attachment 363205


The CBT for 2025 is $241m. The majority of these owners are in fact billionaires who are treating a pro sports league like a business instead of trying to compete. They live on the welfare of teams like the Met/Dodgers/Yankees/Phillies etc and in my opinion have zero room to complain about teams spending millions while they do absolutely nothing in free agency and won't commit long term money to top players. If you buy a pro sports team it's your responsibility to the league and the fans to field a competitive team and the league should vet new owners accordingly.

I think a salary floor of minimum 60% of the CBT should be in order with the same ramifications for going under applying as going over the CBT:

1st year under 60% of the CBT = 20% of the total amount under

2nd year under 60% of the CBT = 30% of the total amount under

3rd year under 60% of the CBT = 50% of the total amount under


This would insure teams are actually trying to field a competitive roster and not trying to make money on the league while producing a piss poor product essentially taking advantage to make money.

Also, baseball has more parody than any other sport regardless of how much you spend. That's a fact. If that wasn't the case the Dodgers should have won 7-8 WS titles in the last 13 years and the Giants none.

Teams like the A's/Rays are a disgrace to the rest of the league. They're not pulling their weight because they won't spend to keep their own prospects who make it to the show long term. The rays have had a litany of talent march right out the door year after year because they simply won't spend. Their attendance numbers are atrocious and deservedly so.

I could post factual example after example showing why cheap teams aren't competitive and essentially cancer/welfare recipients to the rest of the league but you get the idea. Sure markets are different, TV contracts arent all created equal etc but....small market teams have huge diehard fan support when they're competitive.

This is the biggest problem imo.

If any of the following comes across as argumentative it is not intended. I just don't know how else to say...

You bring up some valid issues but what about those teams, like Cleveland, that have a low team salary yet still put out quality. In 2024 Cleveland had the third lowest team salary yet still put quality on the field. Cleveland just does it through their farm system instead of their wallet.

Granted in that Cleveland an exception likely having the best organization in the game as to their farm system. Why should they be penalized for running a good and efficient system? Why should Cleveland spend a bunch in the free agent market when have no real need to do so? Take Steven Kwan as an example. He came up through Cleveland's system and got gold gloves his first three seasons, even as a rookie. He even flirted with a .400 batting average for a good portion of the 2024 season. Another good example is Cleveland's pitcher Shane Bieber who also came up through Cleveland's farm system. He hasn't done much except for an MVP award in an all-star game and also getting the pitcher's version of the triple crown leading the league in wins, ERA and strikeouts. This goes along with his AL Cy Young Award.

I just don't see how it can be justified to fine/penalize a team that went to the 2024 ALCS, and the playoffs more times than not in their recent history, for not spending money they have no need to spend. By your tables Cleveland would be penalized as to falling below a minimum team salary. Of course, as is rather obvious, I am partial to Cleveland but I think my view has merit.

How about a compromise? Granted in that there are teams in both the MLB and NFL that just abuse the revenue sharing and mayhaps such teams should be penalized. As a compromise let's go with your minimum salary requirement but add an escape clause. For discussion we'll go with your minimum salary idea but add that, if the team has made the playoffs within the previous five years, they are exempt? This would strike me as a lot more reasonable than a flat pay the players this minimum or get fined. I just don't see why team ownership should be fined for doing their job better than others.

Actually Cleveland's low team salary is, at least, partially due to coaching. Tito was/is the best and Stephen Vogt is following in his steps even though his game strategies are a bit different. Cleveland tends to be a young team normally and many of the young players will happily take a little less money just to be coached by these guys as they know their game will improve and get them more money down the road. Think about how many Cleveland rookies have started games in recent years. 10 plus is not abnormal.

Mayhaps not totally relevant but I believe that the leagues need to normalize stadium ticket prices. I left Ohio in March of 1987 to go to Texas. In 1986 I paid less than $100.00 USD for season tickets at around the 35 yard line, second deck for the Browns. In 1987 The Cleveland Browns were playing in Dallas, actually Arlington, and I had every expectation of going. Found out that going to one Dallas game would have cost me more than my previous years season tickets. Needless to say but I didn't go to the game. Ever look at the ticket prices for Yankee games? For a lower middle class family they just can't go as one single ticket would be a week's pay or more. Personally I think that the main issue is that the NFL and MLB, along with other 'sports' are no longer really pure sports. They have both become just another part of the entertainment industry; no different than Hollywood.

 

[Ceez]

If any of the following comes across as argumentative it is not intended. I just don't know how else to say...

You bring up some valid issues but what about those teams, like Cleveland, that have a low team salary yet still put out quality. In 2024 Cleveland had the third lowest team salary yet still put quality on the field. Cleveland just does it through their farm system instead of their wallet.

Granted in that Cleveland an exception likely having the best organization in the game as to their farm system. Why should they be penalized for running a good and efficient system? Why should Cleveland spend a bunch in the free agent market when have no real need to do so? Take Steven Kwan as an example. He came up through Cleveland's system and got gold gloves his first three seasons, even as a rookie. He even flirted with a .400 batting average for a good portion of the 2024 season. Another good example is Cleveland's pitcher Shane Bieber who also came up through Cleveland's farm system. He hasn't done much except for an MVP award in an all-star game and also getting the pitcher's version of the triple crown leading the league in wins, ERA and strikeouts. This goes along with his AL Cy Young Award.

I just don't see how it can be justified to fine/penalize a team that went to the 2024 ALCS, and the playoffs more times than not in their recent history, for not spending money they have no need to spend. By your tables Cleveland would be penalized as to falling below a minimum team salary. Of course, as is rather obvious, I am partial to Cleveland but I think my view has merit.

How about a compromise? Granted in that there are teams in both the MLB and NFL that just abuse the revenue sharing and mayhaps such teams should be penalized. As a compromise let's go with your minimum salary requirement but add an escape clause. For discussion we'll go with your minimum salary idea but add that, if the team has made the playoffs within the previous five years, they are exempt? This would strike me as a lot more reasonable than a flat pay the players this minimum or get fined. I just don't see why team ownership should be fined for doing their job better than others.

Actually Cleveland's low team salary is, at least, partially due to coaching. Tito was/is the best and Stephen Vogt is following in his steps even though his game strategies are a bit different. Cleveland tends to be a young team normally and many of the young players will happily take a little less money just to be coached by these guys as they know their game will improve and get them more money down the road. Think about how many Cleveland rookies have started games in recent years. 10 plus is not abnormal.

Mayhaps not totally relevant but I believe that the leagues need to normalize stadium ticket prices. I left Ohio in March of 1987 to go to Texas. In 1986 I paid less than $100.00 USD for season tickets at around the 35 yard line, second deck for the Browns. In 1887 The Cleveland Browns were playing in Dallas, actually Arlington, and I had every expectation of going. Found out that going to one Dallas game would have cost me more than my previous years season tickets. Needless to say but I didn't go to the game. Ever look at the ticket prices for Yankee games? For a lower middle class family they just can't go as one single ticket would be a week's pay or more. Personally I think that the main issue is that the NFL and MLB, along with other 'sports' are no longer really pure sports. They have both become just another part of the entertainment industry; no different than Hollywood.

Not saying you're wrong either but 2 words....Francisco Lindor


Cleveland is notorious for allowing talent to walk out the door. And not just average talent but guys that are worth spending for. Yandy Diaz, Kluber, Bauer, Clevlinger etc etc etc...you can't tell me the tribe wouldn't have been better off fielding a more talented roster by keeping some of these guys? They just didn't wanna fork up thr money to keep their own players and that's exactly my point.

You cant have it both ways. Complain (not you in particular) about teams like the Mets/Dodgers/Yankees spending top dollar on free agents when their own teams don't want to fork over the cash after they've spent their 6 years of service and made a name for themselves to get market value in free agency. It's ridiculous at best. Cleveland could have fielded a better on field competitive product by keeping some of these guys absolutely 100%. The name of the game is to win.

Again my biggest argument here is MLB should not allow anyone to buy a team that doesn't wanna spend on their teams to make them better regardless of what you do with your farm system. Farm system is just another variable in making your team that much stronger not only on the field but also in the market for bigger names via trades or allowing certain players to leave to replace with young talent. Obviously the last part of that statement is something you're proud of, the tribe has been solid building through the draft and their farm system. Still doesn't mean they shouldn't have signed Lindor...Owners who are consistently in the bottom of the league in spending, and take advantage of the welfare checks they get shouldnt be allowed to do so. They should have to sell the team to someone who will do everything in their power to win. That in itself would create parody in a league that is already full of it as it's currently situated.

The tribe has made the playoffs 14 times in the last 30 years so they're doing a great job with their front office, i agree with you on that. But how many titles have they won? 2 with their last one being in 1948. It's obvious they're not doing something right and it's the fact that they don't spend on top tier talent. Is making the playoffs enough? I'm not disparaging the Indians, I'm just illustrating the disparity. You cant cry for a salary cap when you don't even spend to the CBT and continue to rake in the welfare checks. Please miss me with that. There has never been a salary cap but that's the beauty of baseball. The teams with the highest salary don't always win and more often than not it's true. The Dodgers are a prime example, win the NL West and get bounced in the division series... It's hard to hit that ball


I legit laughed when steinbrenner said that it wasn't fair what the Dodgers were doing...if ever the pot was calling the kettle black.

 

[jaylach]

Not saying you're wrong either but 2 words....Francisco Lindor


Cleveland is notorious for allowing talent to walk out the door. And not just average talent but guys that are worth spending for. Yandy Diaz, Kluber, Bauer, Clevlinger etc etc etc...you can't tell me the tribe wouldn't have been better off fielding a more talented roster by keeping some of these guys? They just didn't wanna fork up thr money to keep their own players and that's exactly my point.

You cant have it both ways. Complain (not you in particular) about teams like the Mets/Dodgers/Yankees spending top dollar on free agents when their own teams don't want to fork over the cash after they've spent their 6 years of service and made a name for themselves to get market value in free agency. It's ridiculous at best. Cleveland could have fielded a better on field competitive product by keeping some of these guys absolutely 100%. The name of the game is to win.

Again my biggest argument here is MLB should not allow anyone to buy a team that doesn't wanna spend on their teams to make them better regardless of what you do with your farm system. Farm system is just another variable in making your team that much stronger not only on the field but also in the market for bigger names via trades or allowing certain players to leave to replace with young talent. Obviously the last part of that statement is something you're proud of, the tribe has been solid building through the draft and their farm system. Still doesn't mean they shouldn't have signed Lindor...Owners who are consistently in the bottom of the league in spending, and take advantage of the welfare checks they get shouldnt be allowed to do so. They should have to sell the team to someone who will do everything in their power to win. That in itself would create parody in a league that is already full of it as it's currently situated.

The tribe has made the playoffs 14 times in the last 30 years so they're doing a great job with their front office, i agree with you on that. But how many titles have they won? 2 with their last one being in 1948. It's obvious they're not doing something right and it's the fact that they don't spend on top tier talent. Is making the playoffs enough? I'm not disparaging the Indians, I'm just illustrating the disparity. You cant cry for a salary cap when you don't even spend to the CBT and continue to rake in the welfare checks. Please miss me with that. There has never been a salary cap but that's the beauty of baseball. The teams with the highest salary don't always win and more often than not it's true. The Dodgers are a prime example, win the NL West and get bounced in the division series... It's hard to hit that ball


I legit laughed when steinbrenner said that it wasn't fair what the Dodgers were doing...if ever the pot was calling the kettle black.

lol! Bringing up Lindor was actually a mistake in this discussion as it proves the Cleveland attitude. Of course I wish Lindor was still with Cleveland but, once again, their farm club came through. They replace Lindor with a farm club rookie and he is in the All-star game his rookie season.

Cleveland just isn't the today's rely on the long ball team as they also do very well with small ball. In my opinion they just play the game as it should be played.

 

[jaylach]

Fingers are crossed in Cleveland and here in Wyoming. Cleveland's starting pitcher, Gavin Williams, looks like he may be back. He was expected to be a mainstay in the starting rotation but was injured much of the season. Especially with Shane Bieber not expected back until around mid-season Williams is an important factor. If I have my numbers right, so far this spring Williams has 16 strikeouts and only 2 walks.

If Williams continues as well as he has done he and Tanner Bibee could be in the higher level of starters. Once Bieber is back Cleveland's rotation could be one of the best if Bieber comes back like he was. Who knows what will happen but, if things go well, Cleveland could end up with three starters that would each be number one on many teams.

Due to injuries to starters the Cleveland bullpen just threw too many innings. Many consider their bullpen the best in baseball but, in 2024, they just seemed to fall off late in the season with what looked like just being physically worn out. Take closer, Clase. No one can really argue that he is the best closer in baseball. In 2024 he only gave up a total of 4 runs in the entire regular season yet he gave up 2 home runs in one game against the Yankees in the ALCS. He just looked worn out.

Not saying this will happen but, if they can avoid injuries, Cleveland could have one of the best overall pitching staffs in the league.

I'm still ticked off that Cleveland traded Josh Naylor and brought back Carlos Santana to play first base. I have nothing against Santana as he has done wonderful things for Cleveland in the past. On defense he may even be better than Naylor but I just don't see him fitting well in the current Cleveland offense. He just strikes out too often. Already the Naylor/Santana thing has caused a change as Jose Rameriz now looks to be number two in the batting order instead of his normal third. By analyst opinions this could give Jose up to 50 more at bats, not a bad thing, but the problem is this will likely cut down his high RBI production as he won't have Naylor's 'protection'' forcing opponents to pitch to Jose. I expect that Jose will have more walks but less RBI's.

 

[jaylach]

Royals set a record today by their batters hitting 5 consecutive homers. Since it is in a pre-season game I'm sure it won't count in the records but is still pretty amazing. The actual MLB record is 4 consecutive homers and I was really surprised to learn that has actually happened 11 times. LOL! Of course my old Cleveland Indians were 1 of the 11.