Improving inherited nightmare tank - Ongoing

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AdoraBelle Dearheart

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My dad's 57.7 gallon/218 litre ancient tank, after a year of learning and gradually working on it. Wish I could find a before photo, will have to check my dad's camera and see if he has any shots on there.

Current water parameters
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates - Usually between 10-40ppm now, but well over 200ppm when I first tested a year ago.
GH > 14
KH Usually between 10-15
pH between 7.2 and 7.6

Permanent stocking (brace yourselves)
Two elderly Botia, at least eight -nine years old, exact species unknown, but look very similar to yoyos. Suspect male and female
corydoras aeneus (bronze cories) -2, male and female
1 honey gourami, male
2 zebra danios
Neon tetra -2
Cardinal tetra - 3
Black neon tetra - 3
glowlight tetra - 3
Harlequin rasbora - 5

Livebearers
Mollies 3 large black and silver patterned, 1 male and 2 female. Have been in there at least five years, produce a lot of young
2 yellow, male and female, adult and sub adult
1 gold dust female
Guppies - 3 male, ones I'd bred that he wanted to keep, will rescue these once treatment is finished and I have tank space so my male/female ratio isn't out of balance, since they're getting their tails nipped. Only seems to be happening to the guppies, everything else has short fins

Platies - 2 female santa mickey mouse
2 male red mickey mouse
2 blue females
3 young female orange mickey mouse, offspring of santa platy females and red mickey mouse males. He might be willing to part with these orange ones to reduce breeding, if he can keep a couple of the young male orange fry instead, but I'm concerned about the breeding and about throwing male female ratios off.

Mollie and platy fry of several sizes and colour variations. The mollies don't appear to breed outside of their colour form for some reason, but the platies have no such restraint. Have some blue platy fry since his females were gravid when he got them, have also spotted a couple of fry that look as though they might be blue patterned on an orange background, so will be interesting to see those when they're larger.

I periodically catch up a load of youngsters once they're large enough to avoid the shops filter system and take them to LFS. Way overdue doing that, which has it pretty overstocked right now.

3 assassin snails and about a billion tiny ramshorn snails.


DSCF1664.JPG

I'm aware that the stocking is a nightmare mix of hard and soft water fish and bad schooling numbers. I'm limited in what I can do since it isn't my tank, and my father is in his 80s now and resistant to change, or to hearing what he doesn't want to hear. My folks were in the aviaries and aquatics business for years 40 odd years ago, and fish keeping has changed a lot in that time. Plus really, the aquatics side was my mum's area of expertise, and birds were my dads. But he has kept a tank in the house throughout my childhood and until now, and he came from a time when whether the fish had hard or soft water wasn't a concern. All they cared about was whether it was a community fish or not. My mum has dementia now, and doesn't really get involved with the tank other than watching it and pointing things out sometimes.

He's gradually let me take over more of the maintenance since I moved in to care for them last year. He used to mainly top up the tank rather than gravel clean or water change, and would only use rain water from a covered water barrel. Didn't trust ''chemicals' in tap water or water conditioner. Used to turn off the filter in the hood (never got cleaned) for a few days every now and then "to rest the motor". Didn't connect that to the water turning cloudy for days afterwards. Disliked my doing water changes when I began taking care of the tank, thinks too many changes or too large water changes are bad for the fish. I've done so many sneaky water changes when he's out or asleep. I've gradually moved the ratio over to 3/4s tap to 1/4 rain, since he mostly has livebearers now and the tapwater here is 253ppm, which is okay for the livebearers and cories, not so much for the loaches (presumably, species unknown) and tetra/rasbora, but rainwater is limited during summer especially, and trying to get him to stick to hard water species in future. He's really into the platies right now, less so the other fish. The black mollies were my mums and he doesn't like them much. The tetra are mostly elderly remains of larger schools, so I don't want to get more to up the tetra schools, only to condemn them to hard water. The cories I plan to up the school number to six, since he thinks he got them 2-3 years ago, and they can live in our water range.

The only plants that were in there before were some hardy but sad looking crypts and two dying swords. Just before I got a tank last year and learned more, his tank had been taken over by a stubborn black algae/diatom thing that coated everything for months. Leaves, gravel, rocks and driftwood/glass, it didn't come off easily at all and nothing he was trying seemed to work. He ended up half tearing it down and removing most gravel, all decor and plants etc, and enlisted me to help with the physical stuff. By the time he'd trimmed all the algae coated leaves, there were only roots left, which he left outside in a bucket of substrate and water. Did seem to get rid of the algae though. His driftwood couldn't go back in since it had degraded so far it was flaking into bits.

Over the last year I've added more filtration and convinced him that modern filter motors don't need time to rest, and not to turn them off. Added a load more plants, many of which die, but java fern and moss does well enough, as does elodea or hornwort and duckweed. I add water lettuce from my tanks but it seems to fail in there.

Sorry for the essay! So much more I want to add as well. Really I'd love to tear the whole thing down, scrape all the ugly green paint from the back and one side, replace the substrate etc, but he likes the paint, substrate, slate etc, so it has to stay. The river stone/sand mix substrate doesn't seem to have damaged the barbels on the cories and loaches, but he has agreed to let me create a sand 'beach' sort of area at the front to feed the bottom dwellers on.
DSCF1663.JPG

DSCF1492.JPG
 
It's so great that you're doing everything you can to help these fish. I bet they'll be really happy once all the changes are made.
Thank you :) I think they're already doing a lot better, I couldn't believe the nitrate readings when I first started testing, I don't know how so many fish survived. Only tough ones left in there now.

He did experience some kind of big tank crash maybe 5-6 years or so ago I remember though, where he lost a lot of fish. I think the only survivors he still has from that are the botia and the large black mollies, maybe a few others, and most of the tetra and things he bought after that crash.

I remember him saying at the time that he didn't know why he was having so many losses, and I didn't at the time either. He put it down to some kind of disease. But knowing more about the lack of maintenance and turning his filter off and things now, I think it was a case of old tank syndrome. Or maybe a full cycle crash after he'd turned off the filter for too long at some point.
 
I can symphatize with you...
It's a lot of work to clear the mountain of fish problems...
If I were you, I would have given all the fish away and restart all over again with new tank and filters...
It's harder to fix something than just to replace them all together...
Also, its no fun to keep fish that you dont really like or want. Its a waste of time and resources..
Keep only fish that you really like as it requires lot of work to maintain the tanks.
Now I only keep a tank for Discus and another tank for shrimps..
 
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Wow!

Well done you for helping your dad with his tank and being so nice to him about his stocking choices and maintenance.

I’m not so nice to my dad about his little pond which has 3 fancies in it and have pretty much given up on him and the pond since he’s stubborn as a mule and won’t change his ways! As well as the fact I live 400 miles away does not help much either:lol:

Bit by bit you’ll get there, you may have to be a bit sneaky here and there to the benefit of the livestock but as long so he does not notice so much it’s all good.

Keep up the good work! ;)
 
I can symphatize with you...
It's a lot of work to clear the mountain of fish problems...
If I were you, I would have given all the fish away and restart all over again with new tank and filters...
It's harder to fix something than just to replace them all together...
Also, its no fun to keep fish that you dont really like or want. Its a waste of time and resources..
Keep only fish that you really like as it requires lot of work to maintain the tanks.
Now I only keep a tank for Discus and another tank for shrimps..
Thank you

If it were my tank, I would be doing things a lot differently. But this isn't my tank, it's my dads, and at his age he's lost enough independence and things he used to love; I'm not going to take away his fish tank as well. If I gave away his fish, he'd be both furious and devastated. I'm not going to do that to him. I can try to dissuade him from buying more tetra or danios etc, but getting rid of his fish behind his back isn't an option.

Plus where would they go? Many are elderly already, and species like the botia are difficult. I haven't been able to pin down the subspecies. There are a lot of botia that look a bit like yoyos, but aren't. Most photo ID pics are taken of young botia, maybe a year or two old, while these are at least eight, and botia patterns change as they age. I have a hard time getting clear photos of them too since they're both shy and extremely fast. I contemplated getting some more of them since there were only two, but if I got the wrong sub species, it would likely be much worse for them rather than better, since they won't school with other botia species, but sure will fight with them. If I wanted to give them away, I'd need to find someone who has a group of the exact same species and is willing to take them, which seems an impossible find when I don't even know the species. Giving them away to just anyone willing to take them isn't a fair option either, since it wouldn't improve their lives unless they were joining a larger group, and eight is a good age for most botia apparently. I don't know if an elderly pair could join a group of botia without being terrorised... better to leave these two where they are until they pass naturally.

I can do what I like with my own tanks, and I do :) This one I'm just a caretaker, and trying to gradually improve things, while steering him towards better long term choices for the water here. Once the botia, danios, tetra etc die out, I'll try to talk him out of buying more soft water fish, and to stick with different colour varieties of platies and mollies instead, and the bronze cories.

He is glad I've taken over cleaning the gravel and glass, and I add plants and things since that improves the look of the tank, and he doesn't have to struggle with buckets of rainwater to top up the tank anymore. So he's more open to feedback than I'm really giving him credit for. He is just still distrustful of large frequent water changes or hearing about soft/hard water, so I don't push him too much on that. I'll do a monthly water change/glass clean/substrate vac when he's around, then the all the rest I do when he's unaware so the fish stay healthy and he stays calm, lol.
 
Sneaky water changes :ninja:
:rofl:
Corys can be ok with gravel, as proven here, so long as the gravel isnt rough/sharp. Is your Dad ok with you putting dried leaves in?
We know there are more nightmarish tanks out there, I think the worst crime in fishkeeping is keeping large fish in small tanks (or perhaps neon pink glittery gravel :sick:), with soft/hard water issues and schooling sizes being lesser offences.
What about some floating plants to keep the fish as happy as can be? Ive spare duckweed I can send you way if you like :hey:
 
Wow!

Well done you for helping your dad with his tank and being so nice to him about his stocking choices and maintenance.

I’m not so nice to my dad about his little pond which has 3 fancies in it and have pretty much given up on him and the pond since he’s stubborn as a mule and won’t change his ways! As well as the fact I live 400 miles away does not help much either:lol:

Bit by bit you’ll get there, you may have to be a bit sneaky here and there to the benefit of the livestock but as long so he does not notice so much it’s all good.

Keep up the good work! ;)
Thank you! I was honestly scared to post it for ages, thinking I'd get torn apart, or I'd be super defensive about my dad. Yes his stocking and previous maintenance is a nightmare, but a lot of it I think is just a hold over from attitudes towards fish keeping/lack of internet and real scientific research back then, and those myths combining with his age and stubborn headed-ness making him dig his heels in.
Large weekly water changes weren't always the norm I don't think, so when he's resistant to that, I remind myself that he thinks it's for the best not to do them unless you have to, he's thinking it's the best way for the fish, not being lazy or deliberately cruel. He's the opposite of lazy and never knowingly cruel, he's soft hearted really, but oh man, stubborn! It's also hard for him since I didn't get into fishkeeping myself until last year, so he doesn't understand new fangled internet research, and it's hard for a man who was in the aquatics business to hear lessons from his daughter who's new to the hobby, so I get that too. But believe me, we've had arguments and fights over it! I haven't always been nice and understanding. I had to get a bit sneaky about things like water changes, or just casually mentioning that I added another filter, to try to avoid that.

Sounds like you can empathise with having a stubborn father! Sometimes, continuing to fight just won't help. I know it would only make my dad dig his heels in more. It has to be gradual for him to start to come around. What's wrong with your dad's pond? Is it just too small for three fancies?

Mine has a pond too, but it's about 18 by 12 feet, common goldfish and long tailed shubunkins. I remember helping him dig the thing when he made it when I was about 6.
DSCF1069.JPG

Bit by bit you’ll get there, you may have to be a bit sneaky here and there to the benefit of the livestock but as long so he does not notice so much it’s all good.
LOL speaking of sneaky, I haven't yet asked him about adding more bronze cories so his two have some company... I'm reluctant to ask since I'll have no plausible deniability if he says he doesn't want any more.

So the current plan is to reserve four more bronze cories, then take in a big batch of the young mollies and platies, and pick up the new cories at the same time. I might just sneak them in there and wait and see if he notices! There's a good chance that he won't, at least for a while.. Was chatting with @NCaquatics about it and picking her brain about cories I want myself later, and said I wondered if I could pretend that his two must have bred, since the new ones will likely be smaller, and the female has been looking full of eggs lately :lol:

Then I was asking her about maybe some sterbai's since they can tolerate harder water, but she doesn't think he'll buy that the bronze produced a bunch of little sterbai cory :rofl: I don't think I could keep a straight face while saying "hmm, I dunno? Genetic mutation?"
 
Sneaky water changes :ninja:
:rofl:
Corys can be ok with gravel, as proven here, so long as the gravel isnt rough/sharp. Is your Dad ok with you putting dried leaves in?
We know there are more nightmarish tanks out there, I think the worst crime in fishkeeping is keeping large fish in small tanks (or perhaps neon pink glittery gravel :sick:), with soft/hard water issues and schooling sizes being lesser offences.
What about some floating plants to keep the fish as happy as can be? Ive spare duckweed I can send you way if you like :hey:
Hahaha, mean! You know how I feel about duckweed! :p There was duckweed in this one, but the meds I used recently seems to have killed it (so sad...) and I've done my best to net out what remained. I add water lettuce to it a lot whenever I have excess in my own tanks, and the fish do like it - especially the gourami and fry, but it always stays small and dies off in this tank, I've no idea why. There was a big mass of elodea or hornwort (not sure which) floating on one side before, but that also died when the meds went in. But that new fast growing stem plant is doing well;
DSCF1694.JPG




plus will add some of the hornwort from my tank to replace that. Will be getting frogbit for my new tank, so will try that too!

I'm glad the cories and botia do seem to be okay on this substrate! It's a weird one, it's a mix of sand and river stones I think, some of them look a little uneven and jagged, but are smooth and have rounded edges, like it actually came from a river or something. It's not a standard store bought gravel, no idea where he got it. It doesn't feel rough to the touch at all. But I'd still like to add an area of sand alone where I drop food for them, I think they'd still enjoy playing around and feeding from that over the stones.

I've added a couple of almond leaves, and I don't think he'd mind if I added more or some oak leaves. Would the cories benefit from that? Do yours explore the leaf litter? Adding some to my list! :)
 
Mind sharing what the meds were? :rofl:
Haha I know, I was secretly delighted too! But there were still little bits of white duckweed corpses floating around and caught up in java moss and things, so I have no doubt that it will be back... you know how duckweed is!

But it was either the eSHa-gedex or eSha-2000 that murdered it. You know, in case you ever have to kill off some "worms"...;)
 
Sounds like you can empathise with having a stubborn father! Sometimes, continuing to fight just won't help. I know it would only make my dad dig his heels in more. It has to be gradual for him to start to come around. What's wrong with your dad's pond? Is it just too small for three fancies?

Yeah, far too small a pond for the fancies, pond about the size of a small bathtub and a teeny little filter that does a pathetic little fountain sort of spray, does aerate the water a bit I guess and bamboo plants at the end of the pond with a couple of floating anacharis.

Pond and fish have been there a couple years now so guess it’s not that bad, certainly not that good either.

Quite a few years ago he also had a tropical fish tank, am guessing maybe a 120l tank that had likely to be soft water since is in Scotland and in that tank he had platies, mollies, neons, tiger barbs, a couple of small plecos or cories (can’t remember tbh) oh and guppies :X

Fake plants and cheap decor with mid to fine gravel substrate.

Water changes were once every 3 weeks or once a month depending on his mood, filter maintenance non existent and somehow the mollies as well as the platies bred and some fry survived.

:blink: the mind boggles!!

But actually, that was the norm for those days back then so dad can’t really be blamed for all that and still to this day he still thinks all that was quite correct despite my explanations and seeing my tanks which he has seen quite a few times and still he asks why do I change the water every week and I explain wearily and yet “waste of time and water!” he says every time!:lol:

Some you win, some you lose! Heh
 
Good luck, sound like a big project, I remember many years ago when major water changes were frown upon and we were advised that shock would kill our fish if we did large water changes or did them too often so it was maybe 20-25 % or less and a few weeks apart.
 
Thank you

If it were my tank, I would be doing things a lot differently. But this isn't my tank, it's my dads, and at his age he's lost enough independence and things he used to love; I'm not going to take away his fish tank as well. If I gave away his fish, he'd be both furious and devastated. I'm not going to do that to him. I can try to dissuade him from buying more tetra or danios etc, but getting rid of his fish behind his back isn't an option.

Plus where would they go? Many are elderly already, and species like the botia are difficult. I haven't been able to pin down the subspecies. There are a lot of botia that look a bit like yoyos, but aren't. Most photo ID pics are taken of young botia, maybe a year or two old, while these are at least eight, and botia patterns change as they age. I have a hard time getting clear photos of them too since they're both shy and extremely fast. I contemplated getting some more of them since there were only two, but if I got the wrong sub species, it would likely be much worse for them rather than better, since they won't school with other botia species, but sure will fight with them. If I wanted to give them away, I'd need to find someone who has a group of the exact same species and is willing to take them, which seems an impossible find when I don't even know the species. Giving them away to just anyone willing to take them isn't a fair option either, since it wouldn't improve their lives unless they were joining a larger group, and eight is a good age for most botia apparently. I don't know if an elderly pair could join a group of botia without being terrorised... better to leave these two where they are until they pass naturally.

I can do what I like with my own tanks, and I do :) This one I'm just a caretaker, and trying to gradually improve things, while steering him towards better long term choices for the water here. Once the botia, danios, tetra etc die out, I'll try to talk him out of buying more soft water fish, and to stick with different colour varieties of platies and mollies instead, and the bronze cories.

He is glad I've taken over cleaning the gravel and glass, and I add plants and things since that improves the look of the tank, and he doesn't have to struggle with buckets of rainwater to top up the tank anymore. So he's more open to feedback than I'm really giving him credit for. He is just still distrustful of large frequent water changes or hearing about soft/hard water, so I don't push him too much on that. I'll do a monthly water change/glass clean/substrate vac when he's around, then the all the rest I do when he's unaware so the fish stay healthy and he stays calm, lol.

I guess I am fortunate to have a fish store nearby that will take any of my fish. I also have some friends who will accept my fish.

However, to convince your dad to give away the fish or make changes will be a difficult thing.
Old people are hard to change unless you can slowly introduce something better that will really impress them and they like it or help them to see the benefits of it.
Also, sometimes they will have the sentimental feelings for some fish which you can't remove them unless you can find a better and more beautiful replacement.
If you need any suggestions, you can always ask us.

My sister showed to my mum my Discus fish photos and my mum likes my Tiger Discus.

It's nice to have a pond but again its a lot of work. If I were to tell my sister to get a pond, she would have told me tht it will be too much work.

The theory of changing only a little water is from the old school.. Even some of our old LFS staff will say the same thing.
But with the introduction of Discus fish, many people realized tht they have to make large water change each week.
Previously, I was changing like 120-150% of my Discus tank water each week.
But now I cut down to 90% as its too much work for me...

The Botia loaches have a few different species. Some can grow quite large.

Here are some info:


 
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My dad's 57.7 gallon/218 litre ancient tank, after a year of learning and gradually working on it. Wish I could find a before photo, will have to check my dad's camera and see if he has any shots on there.

Current water parameters
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates - Usually between 10-40ppm now, but well over 200ppm when I first tested a year ago.
GH > 14
KH Usually between 10-15
pH between 7.2 and 7.6

Permanent stocking (brace yourselves)
Two elderly Botia, at least eight -nine years old, exact species unknown, but look very similar to yoyos. Suspect male and female
corydoras aeneus (bronze cories) -2, male and female
1 honey gourami, male
2 zebra danios
Neon tetra -2
Cardinal tetra - 3
Black neon tetra - 3
glowlight tetra - 3
Harlequin rasbora - 5

Livebearers
Mollies 3 large black and silver patterned, 1 male and 2 female. Have been in there at least five years, produce a lot of young
2 yellow, male and female, adult and sub adult
1 gold dust female
Guppies - 3 male, ones I'd bred that he wanted to keep, will rescue these once treatment is finished and I have tank space so my male/female ratio isn't out of balance, since they're getting their tails nipped. Only seems to be happening to the guppies, everything else has short fins

Platies - 2 female santa mickey mouse
2 male red mickey mouse
2 blue females
3 young female orange mickey mouse, offspring of santa platy females and red mickey mouse males. He might be willing to part with these orange ones to reduce breeding, if he can keep a couple of the young male orange fry instead, but I'm concerned about the breeding and about throwing male female ratios off.

Mollie and platy fry of several sizes and colour variations. The mollies don't appear to breed outside of their colour form for some reason, but the platies have no such restraint. Have some blue platy fry since his females were gravid when he got them, have also spotted a couple of fry that look as though they might be blue patterned on an orange background, so will be interesting to see those when they're larger.

I periodically catch up a load of youngsters once they're large enough to avoid the shops filter system and take them to LFS. Way overdue doing that, which has it pretty overstocked right now.

3 assassin snails and about a billion tiny ramshorn snails.


View attachment 113587
I'm aware that the stocking is a nightmare mix of hard and soft water fish and bad schooling numbers. I'm limited in what I can do since it isn't my tank, and my father is in his 80s now and resistant to change, or to hearing what he doesn't want to hear. My folks were in the aviaries and aquatics business for years 40 odd years ago, and fish keeping has changed a lot in that time. Plus really, the aquatics side was my mum's area of expertise, and birds were my dads. But he has kept a tank in the house throughout my childhood and until now, and he came from a time when whether the fish had hard or soft water wasn't a concern. All they cared about was whether it was a community fish or not. My mum has dementia now, and doesn't really get involved with the tank other than watching it and pointing things out sometimes.

He's gradually let me take over more of the maintenance since I moved in to care for them last year. He used to mainly top up the tank rather than gravel clean or water change, and would only use rain water from a covered water barrel. Didn't trust ''chemicals' in tap water or water conditioner. Used to turn off the filter in the hood (never got cleaned) for a few days every now and then "to rest the motor". Didn't connect that to the water turning cloudy for days afterwards. Disliked my doing water changes when I began taking care of the tank, thinks too many changes or too large water changes are bad for the fish. I've done so many sneaky water changes when he's out or asleep. I've gradually moved the ratio over to 3/4s tap to 1/4 rain, since he mostly has livebearers now and the tapwater here is 253ppm, which is okay for the livebearers and cories, not so much for the loaches (presumably, species unknown) and tetra/rasbora, but rainwater is limited during summer especially, and trying to get him to stick to hard water species in future. He's really into the platies right now, less so the other fish. The black mollies were my mums and he doesn't like them much. The tetra are mostly elderly remains of larger schools, so I don't want to get more to up the tetra schools, only to condemn them to hard water. The cories I plan to up the school number to six, since he thinks he got them 2-3 years ago, and they can live in our water range.

The only plants that were in there before were some hardy but sad looking crypts and two dying swords. Just before I got a tank last year and learned more, his tank had been taken over by a stubborn black algae/diatom thing that coated everything for months. Leaves, gravel, rocks and driftwood/glass, it didn't come off easily at all and nothing he was trying seemed to work. He ended up half tearing it down and removing most gravel, all decor and plants etc, and enlisted me to help with the physical stuff. By the time he'd trimmed all the algae coated leaves, there were only roots left, which he left outside in a bucket of substrate and water. Did seem to get rid of the algae though. His driftwood couldn't go back in since it had degraded so far it was flaking into bits.

Over the last year I've added more filtration and convinced him that modern filter motors don't need time to rest, and not to turn them off. Added a load more plants, many of which die, but java fern and moss does well enough, as does elodea or hornwort and duckweed. I add water lettuce from my tanks but it seems to fail in there.

Sorry for the essay! So much more I want to add as well. Really I'd love to tear the whole thing down, scrape all the ugly green paint from the back and one side, replace the substrate etc, but he likes the paint, substrate, slate etc, so it has to stay. The river stone/sand mix substrate doesn't seem to have damaged the barbels on the cories and loaches, but he has agreed to let me create a sand 'beach' sort of area at the front to feed the bottom dwellers on.
View attachment 113590
View attachment 113591
Sorry to hear of your struggles.
I hope you can find a balance of bettering the environment for the fish and letting your elderly loved ones continue to be involved in what they obviously took pleasure in. ♡
 

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