Three Males One Tank

[Fishball7]

riogal_11 "That way, they won't be so focused on each other." I was thinking of adding a shoal of cardinal tetras, 6-8, so that they can create a neutral front area. And great idea about feeding rings! I might have to make one small enough.


As a side note, having posted in another betta forum, it amazes me the people who reply to my thread. This forum has the best people by far, while my thread in the other forum has been closed off "before it becomes more heated". I greatly appreciate your suggestions and open mindedness in allowing the possibility of the idea's success. Theoretical imagining seems to be out of reach for some people /frustrated. I think I am frustrated because if they were not closed to the idea of it, they would probably be able to suggest lots of things. Anyway, thanks.

 

[loraxchick]

As a side note, having posted in another betta forum, it amazes me the people who reply to my thread. This forum has the best people by far, while my thread in the other forum has been closed off "before it becomes more heated". I greatly appreciate your suggestions and open mindedness in allowing the possibility of the idea's success. Theoretical imagining seems to be out of reach for some people /frustrated. I think I am frustrated because if they were not closed to the idea of it, they would probably be able to suggest lots of things. Anyway, thanks.
[/quote]

Bettas are a very touchy subject for sure. Everyone has their own opinions and way of doing things. Opinions get tossed as fact (NOT finger-pointing at anyone at ALL for the record, just the keeping of the species as a whole)! It is important to remember there is a lot to be said by actual experience, not just what you read or hear. Fishkeeping is a hobby that is constantly changing and evolving and so should be the way of thinking. I think there is much potential with this idea. Heck, if i had the space I would try it myself. I have a spare 55 and 40 laying around empty with NO room to set them up. Such is my situation at the moment, but I keep carting the tanks everywhere with the hopes someday I can do exactly what OP is proposing. I love the species that much. Ive kept dozens of species both fresh and salt through the years, have a marine science degree and am constantly improving my abilities and knowledge in the fishkeeping area. Bettas are my favorite fish. PERIOD!
I would not even remotely say "go for it" if my knowledge said otherwise. I see this system working out fine.
Forgive me for forgetting who mentioned it, but the subject of adding females to the mix, as well as other species is a great idea.Dont worry about the males fighting "over" the females as that is not really how fish work from a natural history standpoint. The males will chose and defend their own territory and the females chose who they want to spawn with. It really is that simple. Bettas are NO different than other fish, even though for some reason they are treated differently by many in the hobby. Maybe it is because they are so individualistic, like the interaction with their caretakers (probably because they think they are going to get food...greedy pigs) and are very elegant. Their sassiness is what most people love. But I dont thing in 100 GALLONS there is going to be a blood-bath. Squabbling initially as they establish their territories and from time to time bickering, but i think if properly executed it will be very successful. I mean ciclids are "territorial fish" that fight but people done say-hey, dont house them together ..they must be separated 100% of the time!!! I Just wish i had the room to give it a go myself and prove the nay-sayers wrong as im confident your plan is going to be successful. Well done you for researching first. A big system like that has its own issues that you need to plan first. Not just which fish you are going to add.
Best of luck in your endevours. Feel free to ask away and there are plenty of knowledgeable folks on this forum (not just in the betta section either) that can help with everything from cycle, to set up to plant maintanence etc. My only request is keep us posted. Im seriously jealous!
cheers
edit to add-
at this point i think this thread has been interesting and not too heated. If it gets to that point it IS getting locked and the OP can feel free to PM individual members who they feel will be helpful. Or even the members PMing the OP to stay off the board where potential attacks may occur. This is certainly not an instance of trolling and id like to see it remain open to help the OP. It could be a learning experience for many many betta people!!! But I have no reservation in locking the subject if need be. I know how this section has been in the past (again, NOT a dig at anyone, just saying, from experience in this forum-betta section in particular).
cheers

 

[Fishball7]

Dont worry about the males fighting "over" the females as that is not really how fish work from a natural history standpoint. The males will chose and defend their own territory and the females chose who they want to spawn with. It really is that simple.

Oh my god. That was such a light bulb moment for me. How did I not think that it's the females that choose?! I kept imagining the boys fighting and the champion will strut up to the girl and be like, "Hey there " and I'll be left with two shredded boys. LOL *smacks own head* THANKS! Would adding in another 4 girls (would I be able to have an Imbellis girl?) with 6-8 cardinals work or would it be too squishy? How many girls? In what order should I introduce each fish to the tank? Ah, I forgot to add: will the females establish their own territory, if so will it be as big as the male's? I'm fearful the female's aggressiveness as reported by many people, especially when they're much more streamlined than the slow-moving males.

"A big system like that has its own issues that you need to plan first. Not just which fish you are going to add."

I am also researching on how to setup and maintain a high tech planted tank. It's rather complicated and in depth (substrate, fertiliser and CO2 are cracking my head). Once I've determined how to go about the fish, the plant side of things will be easier.

I LOLed at your "carting the tanks everywhere" [I imagined it to be literal dragging a tank hahaha] Courting a Marine Science degree is in my to do list, pending my interviewing people about it. Proper documenting of everything will be definite, be it resulting in success or failure. I'm also toying with the idea of buying an underwater video camera (those small handheld ones) so I can see what they see in there (plus it would be sooooo cute to have them be curious around and flare at the camera)

 

[Hunterprey]

Good Luck with this one. I've kept 2 males in a 50gallon tank together and they will even eat side by side without fighting. I think they were siblings cuz they belonged from the same batch of bettas that came to my LFS. They were also the least aggressive male Bettas among the ones I have.

They didnt really fight but One male will claim a spot to rest and kick out the other Betta, the other betta just leaves without arguing. There are days where the other betta will be more dominant and also times when they peacefully share a hiding spot, its strange. I could have used more floating plants and caves tho. Eventually I transfered them to a 10 gallon divided tank cuz i prefer having my Bettas sitting closer to my Bed where I can see them up close, since theyre tiny.

I would suggest lots of floating plants and ornaments to block the line of sight, in case sudden aggression arise, giving the other Betta more chance to lose sight of the other much quicker. Lots and lots of small caves/logs as hiding spots tto provide more hiding spots so territorial issues are lessen. 100 gallons is a big tank for Bettas, im thinking this could work. Get the 6ft 100 gallon tank, I think u have better chances with that tank.

 

[OldMan47]

Try a thought experiment with me. Let us assume that no two male splendens can be kept in the same water with success and males cannot exist in the same water as females. Now apply that to wild splendens and what do you get? One male per creek or stream and females only in other streams? I find that exceedingly unlikely to be the case. The simple difficulty of fish ever meeting to breed would have them go extinct rather quickly. I am going to say that common sense prevents this being the real world case.
What we are left with, after examining the real world and determining that males share water with females and other males, is the need to define how big a setup must be for things to work well. It seems to me that is what this thread is all about really. Some people have obtained clues to how big a tank seems to work for at least a particular pair of males or a male with females. One day we may give advice on splendens much like we do with aggressive cichlids. That would be along the lines of a tank must be at least so big for each male and such and such minimal cover must be present to allow each male to establish his territory. I would be interested to know the numbers and the types of territorial boundary markers needed.

 

[Baccus]

I had another thought regarding how to select your male fighters for the combined tank. Rather than having to spend hours on end watching each male for agression, it occured to me that most males that have been kept side by side for a while in the pet shop/ LFS generally give up doing threat displays to their neighbors and just go about thier own thing in their own little cubicle. So this got me to thinking if possible (ie. they have the colours/ fin types) that you like or wanted already settled in side by side in the shop these might be the best fish to put into your tank. Mainly because they have already had their "sparring" matches through the glass and have given up as they could not get each other. Failing that maybe you could set up at home some typical Betta tanks side by side, allow the mlaes to get used to their neigbours and then later relaese them in that order (eg blue veiltail, beside red crown tail beside green metalic etc) and maybe they will stick to the neighbours that they already know.

 

[fuzzynicki]

Photos of my female betta sorority tank containing 35 females and 2 males,- all leaving peacefully together with never a nipped fin in sight!

 

[Xander]

all leaving peacefully together with never a nipped fin in sight!

Except for the male in the 2nd and last picture with the bitten/nipped fins =P

 

[Fishball7]

Hunterprey Several other people have spoken about line of sight and caves/holes, so I'll be integrating that into my layout too. I thought about your 6ft idea, but with the same volume of water, it'll be too shallow for my liking. More than that, whether or not I'll raise the height, I'm not comfortable aquascaping that long a tank with my inexperience.

Baccus AWESOME. Which sparks me another idea: say I found this red halfmoon that I like, depending on approval from LFS, I'll move his jar around and see if he flares and how long he flares for at other males. I could even take another random one and record his flaring time, both as indications of aggressiveness, in case they've been sitting there for too long and only ignored their neighbours. I think that would provide another clue to how aggressive/much flaring time my fish would have that might help in others' similar future endeavors. I might try the three bottles facing each other to acclimate them, though I wonder if with a much vaster amount of water in the main tank, when I release them, if they would still fight it out because it kind of depends upon the assumption that they will recognise their neighbours in the three bottles and retain the visual memory in the main tank. I guess they would to determine their territory, but with the careful selection and tank mate orientation (which would also show if they are very aggressive) the risk of attacks would be much lessened.

I have also messaged this guy with multiple betta http/www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=53682&page=2 and hopefully he'll reply to share with me his way of choosing his fish.

Whereabout in Aus are you? I'll be moving to Brisbane soon, which is when I'll buy all the stuff for my tank

fuzzynicki Wow! That is one big angel and 35 females. Is this the tank that you described above? The male pictured does seem to have nipped fins and scales.

 

[Devilish Angelfish]

My housemate and I used to breed Bettas and we found that just before stormy weather, the males would go into bubble-nest making mode. We figured it was the barometric pressure change that caused this. This is also the time to add the female (if she's ready, that is) - they will immediately spawn. A little research on the origins of Bettas and their environment lead me to the following conclusion: Bettas are stimulated to breed by the weather cycles. They come from a country that has flash floods, muddy ponds and shallow pools - they are good in the water channels in the rice paddys because they help keep the mosquito lavae down. They don't live in rivers as such, more little muddy pools that become their domain - this is the reason why they have a high tolerance for oxygen-poor water. When the rainy season comes, the channels, puddles, etc, overflow and the males build their bubble nest in the expectation that a female will be washed down into their spot. This is probably why a male betta will often kill a female who is not ready to spawn. Having said that, you have to know I live in Queensland, Australia (Hello, Baccus ) and that we don't need heaters here so the temperatures the fish experience are the natural ones - I'm not sure they would experience the humidity and barometric pressure changes in other colder climates and so I don't know if other keepers/breeders have witnessed this breeding stimulus.

 

[Better is Betta]

With the nipped fins on the male....I would put down to being the females as the culprits because they do it to my males. The girls have their own bit of turf in the tank as well and my male has learnt not to go there.

 

[Fishball7]

My housemate and I used to breed Bettas and we found that just before stormy weather, the males would go into bubble-nest making mode. We figured it was the barometric pressure change that caused this. This is also the time to add the female (if she's ready, that is) - they will immediately spawn. A little research on the origins of Bettas and their environment lead me to the following conclusion: Bettas are stimulated to breed by the weather cycles. They come from a country that has flash floods, muddy ponds and shallow pools - they are good in the water channels in the rice paddys because they help keep the mosquito lavae down. They don't live in rivers as such, more little muddy pools that become their domain - this is the reason why they have a high tolerance for oxygen-poor water. When the rainy season comes, the channels, puddles, etc, overflow and the males build their bubble nest in the expectation that a female will be washed down into their spot. This is probably why a male betta will often kill a female who is not ready to spawn. Having said that, you have to know I live in Queensland, Australia (Hello, Baccus ) and that we don't need heaters here so the temperatures the fish experience are the natural ones - I'm not sure they would experience the humidity and barometric pressure changes in other colder climates and so I don't know if other keepers/breeders have witnessed this breeding stimulus.

I had an inkling of this as well. I was tweaking with the idea that once a month or so I'll remove 50% of the water, maybe leave lights, CO2 and fertilisers off or, most likely, reduce the amounts, pretend it's a 'dry season' for a day or two and refill. I'll be in Brisbane too so humidity and heat won't be a problem most of the time.

 

[Baccus]

I am in Central Queensland so a bit of a hike from Brisbane. Even in CQ, all of my tanks have heaters but they only really come on during winter the rest of the year the heaters are just sitting in the tank collecting moss . Barometric pressure does stimulate a lot of fish to breed as does changes in water temp, my cory's are the best little weather forecasters that I have come across (apart from ants), but as your not really trying to breed your Bettas in the community tank I would think that barametric pressure and water temp shouldn't be a huge issue. If you did try breeding them in this setup then the real issues I can see arising is when the fry hatch and start hunting around for food (often with the male in tow), as the male will still be in protection mode to ensure his fry's survival and the other fighters in the tank will most likely just view the fry as food. I would have to suggest by all means try to keep 2 or 3 males in the one tank with all of your other precautions, possibly even add some females too (but watch them they can be as nasty as the boys at times) but if wanting to breed them reduce the stress on you and the fish and set up a small breeder tank with the desired male and later add the conditioned female, that way once breeding has been acheived the female can go back into the fighter community and the male can go about his business caring for his eggs and fry without stress. Once the fry are free swimming then the male can be put back in his standard home ( remeber he may have lost his old territory by this stage and there maybe some arguie bargie as heirachies are resorted) and the fry can go on developing in their own tank until they need to be seperated out.

 

[fuzzynicki]

all leaving peacefully together with never a nipped fin in sight!

Except for the male in the 2nd and last picture with the bitten/nipped fins =P

These photos were taken upon the arrival of the boy after he had come through the post. He had recently just been bred with his copper counterpart. I have no reason to lie about my bettas! If they weren't living peacefully together then I would NOT keep them together!

 

[Fishball7]

If you did try breeding them in this setup then the real issues I can see arising is when the fry hatch and start hunting around for food (often with the male in tow), as the male will still be in protection mode to ensure his fry's survival and the other fighters in the tank will most likely just view the fry as food. I would have to suggest by all means try to keep 2 or 3 males in the one tank with all of your other precautions, possibly even add some females too (but watch them they can be as nasty as the boys at times) but if wanting to breed them reduce the stress on you and the fish and set up a small breeder tank with the desired male and later add the conditioned female, that way once breeding has been acheived the female can go back into the fighter community and the male can go about his business caring for his eggs and fry without stress. Once the fry are free swimming then the male can be put back in his standard home ( remeber he may have lost his old territory by this stage and there maybe some arguie bargie as heirachies are resorted) and the fry can go on developing in their own tank until they need to be seperated out.

Yeah, I don't intend to breed them, can't be bothered with raising the fry. If it so happens they mate, then survival of the fittest/natural selection will do the trick. In which case then the number of fry that survives should be small and I'm happy with that.


The thread is slowing down, so I'll wrap things up. I'm very thankful for all your input and if someone has anymore to suggest, I'll appreciate it through here or PM me. The earliest all this will happen is the start of next year when I've settled in from moving interstate in November and gotten a full-time job (this is quite the key). I'll be sure to setup threads in here and share the progress. Cheers