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Rosy Loach - sand or gravel substrate?

Discussion in 'Cyprinids' started by Ch4rlie, Jul 1, 2017.

  1. Ch4rlie

    Ch4rlie Unlicensed Moderating Moderator
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    Hi

    Have come across a specie fo fish am seriously considering to obtain from a LFS, this is a rarely found specie and have not come across this for quite some time tbh.

    But I am hoping some members will know more about this specie other than what is stated on Seriously Fish website -

    Petruichthys sp. 'rosy' - Rosy Loach

    My real query is to ask if this loach will be happy on a fine (ish) gravel substrate rather than sand?

    As both the tanks I have has gravel substrate rather than sand.

    Also the tank I plan to actually add these loaches is not quite mature, about 6 months since last rescape, but hoping may be ok, the plants have not grown as much as hoped and having a slight issue with green string algae but is under control for now (am reducing lighting times to 7 hours daily rather than 7.5 hours and this seems fairly effective for the moment) but the tank is not densely planted yet as the plants have not yet fully grown.

    However my main 3 foot tank is fairly densely planted and am sure the loaches will thrive but its really the other tank I'd like to have them in.....hmm.

    This specie is not exactly cheap and cannot afford to get, say, 16+ to have 8, would prefer to get 12 in each tank which would be the ideal and see which tank they thrive in.

    But I surely would appreciate any real advice on this lovely little loach specie.

     
  2. hobby5

    hobby5 Member

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    Disclaimer: I have no hands on experience. But this is a species on my wish list too :D

    Do you know if the individuals at your LFS are wild caught or tank bred? Could you distinguish males and females?

    Imho a 6 month old planted tank is certainly mature enough. Nothing I would worry about. I would follow the advise and add lots of leave litter and in one corner Taxiphyllum.

    Good luck!
     
  3. Ch4rlie

    Ch4rlie Unlicensed Moderating Moderator
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    I would imagine these loaches will most likely be tank bred though will certainly ask.

    The loaches are pretty young, only about 1 - 1.5cm in length max, pretty hard to distinguish between the sexes at the moment as the colours are washed out due to usual LFS stress.

    I have some catappa leaves which I do certainly plan to use if I get these loaches if they're fine with gravel substrate.

    Thanks.
     
  4. Byron

    Byron Member

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    I would be more inclined to think the species is wild caught. Commercial breeding of any of these loaches is pretty much non-existent (though I stand to be corrected).

    I tend to look at the natural habitat of a species to decide what is needed in the way of substrate and decor (wood, rock, leaves, etc). This species occurs in wet grasslands so the substrate is likely mud, with a layer of dead leaves covering it. SF doesn't mention any burrowing need of this species (like for example kuhlii or horseface loaches require), though many loaches do like to excavate (my Botia kubotai for example) under chunks of wood. I would say sand is the best substrate, closest to "mud." Lots of dried leaves (oak, beech, maple, almond) seems advisable.

    Byron.
     
  5. Ch4rlie

    Ch4rlie Unlicensed Moderating Moderator
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    Thats interesting that you think these loaches may be wild rather than tank bred. I was actually assuming (yeah I know, assume is to get ready for a fall) that these being egg scatterers would be easier to breed for some reason, based on nothing at all, just a hunch.

    I digress, now, being wild bred is another ball game altogether compared to tank bred livestock, namely in getting their environment and water parameters right as well as feeding them. More of a gamble.

    But accordign to that SF link, my tank parameters are pretty much spot on at the higher end but not extreme ranged though, pH 7.6 - 7.8 and hardness 220ppm, thats probably for tank bred rather than wild, thats the thing.

    At the prices the LFS is selling them at, its a fairly expensive gamble for me but one I could regret not taking since these guys rarely turn up for sale here in UK.

    And I kinda figured being wild, then mud/sand would be the natural choice but since I do not have sand substrate and will not change the tank substrate at this stage. There is very little information as to how they behave, ie more liek khullie loaches or more akin to clown or perhaps horseface loaches.

    Am intrigued to find this out, so I may, perhaps against my better judgement, to purchase some of these and try to ensure these guys thrive, if I get enough I can split 8+ for both main tanks I have and add many catappa leaves and addition of various plants to bulk out the less mature tank to be more on the densley planted side.

    I figure these guys will have a better chance of survival in my tanks rather than some persons tank who knows next to nothing of fishkeeping..........
     
  6. Byron

    Byron Member

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    I obviously don't know the fish you have, and am going from the SF link so assume it is the undescribed species. You may find more info on it somewhere, using the other "names" mentioned in the Notes section on SF. Kottelat (2012) did a complete review of all freshwater loaches over a period of more than a decade, and he has this comment:

    Taxonomic notes. The genus Yunnanilus is very heterogenous.
    Part of the species that had been placed in a Y. nigromaculatus
    group (e.g. by Chen et al., 2012) are now Eonemachilus.
    Other species of that group are still listed under
    Yunnanilus but may belong to Heminoemacheilus or some
    unnamed genus or genera. Yunnanilus brevis and some unnamed
    species from Myanmar are placed in Petruichthys.​

    Matt at SF presumably thinks the "rosy" species belongs in Petruichthys because of its location in Myanmar and Kottelat's determinations. As there is no species description/name to date, tracking down info is usually more difficult. Just over a year ago, at Matt's request I did a revision of many of the loaches on SF, primarily using Kottelat (2012) and Matt determined any discrepancies as I ploughed through them.

    As for behaviour, I can only guess from the taxonomic placement that this species is probably much like the botine species (Botia) and those in Yunnanilus, including the lovely Y. cruciatus which I had a shoal of for several years. Not burrowers, but need lots of chunks of wood, preferably with tunnels as they love to play tag. This is one benefit of using scientific names and keeping up with the ichthyology; one can basically apply behaviour/traits/requirements of one species to others in the same taxon.

    Unless the fish in your store are from a local breeder, they are more likely to be wild caught. But I am speaking from a North American perspective, and recognize that fish from European breeders are not often seen over here, so I may be off base.

    Given the info under Behaviour and Compatibility on SF, I personally would not hesitate to acquire a shoal, probably 7-9, if I came across them. I remember once a few years back coming across a smallish loach in a local store, and when asked, the clerk said they were peaceful and remained small. I never take the word of store staff (unless I know them personally and know at least something about the species) so I left them and looked them up when I got home. Glad I didn't get any...they get very nasty and aggressive, and do not remain "small." Can't remember what they were now, but they didn't appear in any of my tanks.

    Byron.
     
  7. hobby5

    hobby5 Member

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    I agree with @Byron that sand most likely would be the better substrate. That's why I was talking about using lots of leaves (not only a few ), because this will hopefully convert to some mud. Best would be to use oak and beech or leaves of other hard woods.

    If they are not wild caught I would just give it a try, because if you lose them the natural population has not been harmed.

    In German forums it's reported that they are pretty easy to breed. They need hiding places between plants and wood. But definitely don't behave like kuhlii loaches. They even swim in mixed schoals with small barbs (Pethia aurea). I don't think they behave like a classic loach but more something inbetween loach and barb.

    Edit: Found in one of the forums, that they prefer wood and plants over stones for hiding places.
     
  8. Ch4rlie

    Ch4rlie Unlicensed Moderating Moderator
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    Indeed, I did note the taxomic species and at the moment I am unsure exactly what specie but if remember correctly was listed as Petruichthys Rosy Loach, so if correct then a Myanmar located specie. Again am not one thats particularly knowledgable on loaches but would very much like to learn more of this specie but as you mentioned, specific information is hard to come by.

    But of course being a LFS, this could easily be mislabled but from what I saw of them in the tank, they did look very much like the pictures on the SF link, just much less coloured most likely due to stress in LFS environment.

    It is entirely possible a breeder did managed to breed this specie and sold them to the LFS fairly cheaply rather than being wild caught but at this point would be pure guesses, but certainly will ask the staff there when I look again tomorrow, there is one chap there who seems fairly knowledgable and his info has proven to be fair in the past though not 100% but not so bad that I'd ignore everything he says.
    ( I sometimes like to test LFS staff on basics to see if they have any idea of what they look after :lol: )

    But certainly under the behaviour and compatibility part of the Rosy Loach, is very agreeable with my tank stockings -

    One tank has Asian Rummynoses (sawsbas resplendens) with Emerald Dwarf Danio (erythromicron) and 6 endlers, also plan to get either glass shrimps or red cherries (just depends on whats on offer at LFS). Planted moderately but not matured or fully grown yet, floating water lettuce, 3 pieces of bogwood, may add one more piece of wood that I have and will also add bunch of catappa leaves.

    Tank two has Celestial Pearl Danios (margaritatus) and Lambchop Rasboras (espei) along with 6 endlers, red cherry shrimps. fairly densely planted and matured growth, floating water lettuce, several small pieces of bogwood and rootwood.

    Both tanks have several species of snails, MTS being the most common. And of course both have the same substrate, a fine ish gravel, not sand. Both have T8 lighting. Twice weekly added ferts (Tropica Premium & Specialised)
    With both of these tanks in mind, I think ticks most of the desired habitats preferences for these loaches, just the substrate and the not quite matured tank makes me hesitate slightly.

    EDIT - hobby5 responded whilst was typing this out. That is helpful advice and I agree re the sand and wild caught statement, will take note of that, appreciated.
     
  9. Ch4rlie

    Ch4rlie Unlicensed Moderating Moderator
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    Managed to get 20 of these little Rosy Loaches for a reasonable sum after discussing with LFS staff, got them for £42 / $55 US which is just over £2 each, not so bad since they were asking for £2.95 each in the first place.

    These were tank bred thankfully, from a local breeder apparently which is good imho.

    Have split the group of 20 into 2 groups of 10 for 2 separate tanks, fairly happy with that for now, not possible to distinguish the genders at this stage so have just added them into the tanks and basically hope for the best.

    We'll see how they behave and interact after being in the tanks awhile and hopefully they will colour up some fairly soon.

    Thanks for your advice and suggestions :)
     
  10. hobby5

    hobby5 Member

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    Congrats! That is pretty cheap even 2.95 is cheap. Good luck and keep us posted ;)
     
  11. Ch4rlie

    Ch4rlie Unlicensed Moderating Moderator
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    Yeah, not the most expensive fish ever but my budget was £40 and actually wanted 24 to have 12 in each tank, so had to compromise a little but a small shoal of 10 for each tank is okay for now.

    Amazing really, LFS around here seem to charge more for little fish like CPD and yet bala sharks and RTBS are cheap as chips. Should be the other way round imho :lol:
     
  12. Ch4rlie

    Ch4rlie Unlicensed Moderating Moderator
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    Just a couple of pics to show they are colouring up now, compared to earlier when they were almost completely off white colour, washed out completely, now stripes and colours starting to show.

    Interesting to watch how they interact and swim.

    They kind of shoal with the other fish, a sort of flicking darting swim, hard to take pics of tbh otherwise just a blur! :x

    IMG_3643.JPG

    In main 3 foot tank

    IMG_3700.JPG
    Resting on java fern.
    In 2.5 foot tank.

    IMG_3695.JPG

    Could not resist taking a pic of this resplendent Asian Rummynose really proper posing! Couple of females admiring as well.
    And a silly endler photobombing!
    From the 2.5 foot tank btw.

    :)
     
  13. hobby5

    hobby5 Member

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    They look pretty thin, and can use some proper food for the next days/weeks. Supposedly they are very unfussy eaters.

    Btw. lovely T. espei ;) Did you have any luck breeding those?
     
  14. Ch4rlie

    Ch4rlie Unlicensed Moderating Moderator
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    The loaches ARE on the thin side, hopefully this is simply down to the stresses of the LFS environment. And will give them a variety of food and over the next week or two they should look more healthy.

    They are lively and active little fish, hardly stays still at all, always foraging and they do not stay on the substrate at all, rather they go all over the tank and on plant leaves etc, a little like otos behaviour I suppose. I am rather pleased made the decision to purchase these lovely little loaches.

    IMG_3715.JPG IMG_3713.JPG



    A neat addition to any tank I think.

    And thank you for the nice comment on my Lambchops, a much underated little fish imho, add a lovely splash of colour the tank and they are proper gluttons! Seriously, some of them are fairly big and bordering on fat :lol: They will eat ANYTHING aside form plants obviously.

    I have not tried to breed any fish, I am not one for breeding fish, if they breed then fine, if not then equally am fine with that. I suppose its possible they may have bred in the past but due to the gluttony of the Lambchops then suspect fry have little chance of survival as well as me not providing much in the way of infusoria.

    A (very) long time ago when I very first started the hobby I had a 4 foot long tank and I bred mollies and other usual easy to breed fish species and I guess I never really got into a breeding program or anything like that, its just happened, its certainly true "just add water" does work for these livebearers :lol:

    Just for you, a pic of a couple of the Lambchops, they are rather easy to take photos of compared to the loaches thats for sure.

    IMG_3709.JPG

    Honestly, these pictures do not do these espeis any justice, they are brighter and more colourful than these pics shows imho ;)
     
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  15. hobby5

    hobby5 Member

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    Sorry for the detour and thanks for the further info about the rosy loaches.

    Totally agree the T. espei are some real gems if the conditions are right (and some proper gluttons, true). I got some too. :D Mine breed regularly but so far no fry has appeared. Unfortunately, due to space restrictions I couldn't separate them yet. Do you observe any breeding too?
     

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