What natural fish live with Altum angelfish. Im am particularly wondering about the ones from the Rio Negro and branching waterways of the Amazon. I know rummynose tetras, and other species of characids live with them. What about bottom dwellers. Corys, plecos?
Natural fish that live with angelfish?
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First, we need to clarify that you are referring to the true Pterophyllum altum species, and not the so-called "Peruvian altum" which is P. scalare.
P. altum will be wild caught fish, unless you know a local breeder. This species, which is the largest in size of the three "angelfish" species, occurs in the upper Rio Negro and upper Rio Orinoco systems in Colombia and Venezuela, in Orinoco tributaries such as the Inírida and Atabapo. The "Peruvian altum" occurs in Peru obviously; it is slightly taller (the vertical fins) than most P. scalare but is not taxonomically a distinct species.
It would take some time to discern the compatriot species. As you mention, one is Hemigrammus bleheri, the brilliant rummynose, which does occur in the upper Rio Negro in Colombia though I cannot say if it would be found alongside P. altum.
Respecting the aquarium, P. altum must have warm temperatures, 82F/28C is absolute minimum, so tankmates need to be able to thrive in very warm tanks. As for Corydoras, this is much too warm for most species; there are a few such as C. sterbai and C. duplicareus that are often suggested as suited, and I have said this myself in other threads, but I also admit that not every cory authority will agree. I read a discus keeper asking this question on a cory site and the cory authorities agreed that no species of cory should be kept this warm.
Byron.
P. altum will be wild caught fish, unless you know a local breeder. This species, which is the largest in size of the three "angelfish" species, occurs in the upper Rio Negro and upper Rio Orinoco systems in Colombia and Venezuela, in Orinoco tributaries such as the Inírida and Atabapo. The "Peruvian altum" occurs in Peru obviously; it is slightly taller (the vertical fins) than most P. scalare but is not taxonomically a distinct species.
It would take some time to discern the compatriot species. As you mention, one is Hemigrammus bleheri, the brilliant rummynose, which does occur in the upper Rio Negro in Colombia though I cannot say if it would be found alongside P. altum.
Respecting the aquarium, P. altum must have warm temperatures, 82F/28C is absolute minimum, so tankmates need to be able to thrive in very warm tanks. As for Corydoras, this is much too warm for most species; there are a few such as C. sterbai and C. duplicareus that are often suggested as suited, and I have said this myself in other threads, but I also admit that not every cory authority will agree. I read a discus keeper asking this question on a cory site and the cory authorities agreed that no species of cory should be kept this warm.
Byron.
Still some confusion to sort out. You are using the term Peruvian angel, which I take to be the "Peruvian altum" form of P. scalare. These will be wild caught too, again unless you have a local breeder. To my knowledge, subject to correction, this variety has not been commercially raised. But this is just surmise. This form is apparently endemic to the Rio Nanay system.
While waiting for that, just a comment on wild caught fish...this can actually benefit the natural ecosystem. I know there are horror stories about this in southern and SE Asia, but South America has a better record by far. Many of the locals depend upon ornamental fish collection as their source of livelihood; these native peoples would have to turn to other occupations, such as farming, which has destroyed huge areas of the rainforest, putting many species at risk. Added to this are the regulations governing fish collecting, and these are controlled such that the ecosystem is not harmed nor are the fish species threatened. There are a number of videos online that show these operations, and the wisdom of the locals to ensure they never over-fish is exemplary.
Project Priaba is an exemplary example of this, and one that is highly supported by the aquarium industry and environmentally-conscience people. You can read more here:
http://projectpiaba.org/what-we-do/objectives/
While waiting for that, just a comment on wild caught fish...this can actually benefit the natural ecosystem. I know there are horror stories about this in southern and SE Asia, but South America has a better record by far. Many of the locals depend upon ornamental fish collection as their source of livelihood; these native peoples would have to turn to other occupations, such as farming, which has destroyed huge areas of the rainforest, putting many species at risk. Added to this are the regulations governing fish collecting, and these are controlled such that the ecosystem is not harmed nor are the fish species threatened. There are a number of videos online that show these operations, and the wisdom of the locals to ensure they never over-fish is exemplary.
Project Priaba is an exemplary example of this, and one that is highly supported by the aquarium industry and environmentally-conscience people. You can read more here:
http://projectpiaba.org/what-we-do/objectives/
Well that makes me feel better about buying wild caught fish! Sorry for the confusion, but which is the smallest of the two. And do other commercially bred angelfish have the same needs. According to seriously fish Altum angels have a lower ph.
There are three recognized species of "angelfish," following Kullander (1986). Pterophyllum scalare is the only one commercially raised, and the species which has been the base for the many varieties (black, lace, marble, etc). So all of the varieties must be commercial fish (since they do not occur in nature), and the original bar form of this species is normally similar; one can get wild P. scalare from importers, and they not surprisingly are more robust than commercial fish. I will attach a video of a tank of wild P. scalare from the Rio Cuiuni, just to show the beauty of this species, and how angelfish whatever the species or variety should ideally be housed. This species normally attains a body length of six inches, with a vertical fin span of 8 inches. It is more accommodating of water parameters outside its native range.
P. altum is larger, by roughly an inch in both measurements, though not all fish in aquaria attain these measurements. Being wild caught, they must have water parameters very close to their natural environment. There is an interesting series of videos online authored by Ted Judy for Amazonas magazine that details his trip to South America, and one or two episodes spend considerable time in a collection facility. The care to reproduce the very soft and acidic water is quite instructive. Water is where many fail with this species.
The third species and the one rarely if ever seen in the hobby is P. leopoldi, which is the smallest at approximately 4 inches body length. Obviously would be wild caught, but coming across it in the hobby is indeed rare. When it is imported, it may be seen under the name P. dumerilii but this is not a taxonomical valid name.
Wild caught fish of whichever species need warm water, similar to discus; minimum 82F (28C). The commercially-raised fish of P. scalare can do well at more "normal" tropical fish temperatures, in the 77-78F (25C) range. The other parameters as I already mentioned can be more flexible, within reason. Soft to moderately soft water is still best, with a pH in the 6's to mid 7's.
Finding tankmates for angelfish is not always simple. But first, the fish must have a group, minimum five, meaning at minimum a 4-foot (120 cm) length tank. The only exception is a mated/bonded pair used for breeding, which can be on their own, or with some other species. A group means pairs may form, which introduces more issues as these fish are cichlids, and being territorial they can make life very difficult for other angelfish or even other species, depending upon the individual fish and their temperament. Peaceful less active fish can work; the disk-shaped tetras in Hyphessobrycon provide some good tankmates, though not all species. Any prone to fin nip must be avoided. Linear small fish may be eaten, so neons, cardinals, etc are not recommended. Corydoras catfish are usually ignored. There is a large group of C. duplicareus in the video.
My idea was a 4 foot by 18 inch tank with 5 small angels in it. I would add manzanita wood toward one side (I have alot of it). Some Vallisneria plants in between the driftwood. I also was going to add indian almond leaves to leak out tannins and to lower the ph. Tankmates would consist of a school of 7 rummy nose tetras and a school of 5 mosaic corydoras. This is just an idea, I still need to figure out my exact hardness because I know these fish like softer water.
You should be able to find the GH and KH from your municipal water authority if you are on city water; check their website.
Lowering pH is tied to the GH and KH, so until we know these numbers it is guessing what leaves (or other organics) may achieve if anything. But dried leaves release more than just tannins and this benefits all soft water species, so still a good item for the aquascape. Floating plants are in my view mandatory, for shade (no forest fish appreciates bright overhead lighting--that was one problem in that video, but that may have been for the video.
The tank sounds like a 70 or 75g, one of mine is a 70g with those dimensions (and a height of 20 inches). I would increase the cories to at least 12. BTW, which species is the "mosaic"?
Rummynose are linear, thus not the best tankmates. When mature, angelfish frequently eat linear fish. Species that do well are the Rosy clade (Rosy Tetra, Red Phantom Tetra, Roberti Tetra, etc).
Edit: You posted while I was typing...yes, just angelfish and cories as in the video can be nice.
Our water is very hard. Im not sure what number but I know that it has a lot of minerals in it. Obviously this is not good for softwater fish, that is why this was an idea. I thought that I could either prepare water with the indian almond leaves or use the reverse osmosis filter that we have and adding minerals into it with a powder (I forget the name of it). Or will commercially bred fish be used to the different water conditions? This is the scientific name of the cory I was talking about. Corydoras Haraldschulzi, or do you have a better suggestion of cory.
Sadly I've not come across C. haraldschultzi locally, wish I could. It is near-identical with C. sterbai, the snout being rounded on the latter and elongated on the former. I have C. sterbai, they are fairly common now as they are one of the few cory species being commercially raised. You can have any cory you like, they are all similar. Temperature is the only thing, they do not like it warm, but commercial angelfish are OK as I previously explained. However, this cory is likely to be wild caught, so another reason to pin down the GH/KH.
RO water mixed with your tap water (less expensive than preparations) is possible. But you/we need to know the numbers, what you have may be fine. If the GH and KH are significant, then no amount of organics will reduce pH without reducing the GH and KH. Diluting the tap water with "pure" water like RO or rainwater if it can be safely collected is the best way to do this.
We use a water softener in our house. I realized that this was not good for fish recently but I have had a 29 gallon aquarium for almost 4 years and my fish seem to be doing fine. I am using tapwater and am not sure if this is a bypass. This is the reason I was thinking of using RO. I can still find out our water hardness is you would like.
Softeners are not good for most fish, depending how they (the softeners) work. So if you can bypass the softener, the GH and KH and pH of the source water is worth knowing. The thing about water adjustment is that it makes water changes more cumbersome; the regular weekly 50-60% change is one thing, but there may well be emergencies. I've had them, not often fortunately, but it only takes one when you need a major water change, and you could lose the fish if anything went wrong. But you have to know what water you have to start with before deciding what if anything needs doing, and then how to best do it.
Fish species have differing levels of "managing" with things like water softeners. Some of these may be OK; it is the ones that use sodium salts to replace calcium and magnesium salts that are dangerous for freshwater fish. But livebearers would have less trouble than soft water fish, though still problematic. It would help to find out exactly how your softener does the softening.
Edit: I now see your GH numbers. Is 204 grains per gallon, or some other unit. There are 7 or 8 units used to measure hardness.
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