Fluval Edge, No Cycle.....

[MarcoPereira]

Thank you. I will report on what happens....wish me luck!

 

[MarcoPereira]

Ok, well, I had to rescape the Edge once more as could not clean it at all the way I had it prior and that was a week ago. Have re added some shrimp in the new set up and apart from one death this morning all seem fine (I hope). Ammonia has creeped up to 0.5 ppm yesterday but today it is at 0.25 ppm....no nitrites have shown and have not tested nitrates as am doing a water change tomorrow of around 25%.
It is the Ph that is baffling....I added a small bit of texas holey rock on advice of a friend that suggested it to try and keep Ph above 6 but it seems that it is still swinging wildly from 7.8 mid week and today 6! I had taken some bits of the rock out yesterday as thought Ph was to high for my intended stocking but am at a loss on what is going on in there. Why can I not get a stable Ph? it is the most annoying thing as I feel stuck in this calamity of Ph swinging and not stabilising to whichever level....I just want one Ph value and that's it....I can work around it if only it stayed stable. If I add nothing to the tank as far as holey rock or the new hardscape stones which are Seiryu which I thought may help with Ph and Kh the tank will be highly acidic as my tap water has no hardness and a Ph of 7-7.2.
I would like to cycle this thing as the plants I have don't seem to be silent cycling the tank at all....mostly slow growing Anubias and Java fern varieties.
On a side note, I now have small detritus worms and calcium deposits on glass....this tank is a mess....I wonder how the shrimp have managed to survive.
I need some help on what to do...the Ph thing is maddening and am aware of the Ph swings during the cycling but the nitites are not even showing yet so something is wrong.
I am sure I have had an answer to this prior but am at wits end and ready to call it quits.
Thanks guys for your understanding and patience with these dumb questions.
PS am adding an air stone to the tank, will this help at all?

 

[jag51186]

Just going to throw this out there until Byron gives you a much better answer than mine will be, (Byron's the man!). I find that it helps to not think of silent cycling as cycling at all. You are basically keeping enough plants in your tank to utilize all of the ammonia/nitrite that would show itself during the cycling process. When I started my tank, on Byron's advice, I added fish initially with my heavily planted 80g tank (after the plants had time to establish so they were growing well). I tested daily (sometimes twice daily) and never saw Ammonia above 0.25, and never saw Nitrites at all. But, eventually nitrates appeared at 5ppm on my test kit. 

So, you aren't really "cycling" the tank by the traditional method. The bacteria do establish themselves over time, but you aren't counting on them for your cycle...you are counting more on your plants. The concern I have in your current scenario is that the plants you have are slow growers, so they won't utilize ammonia/nitrite as quickly as faster growing plants. That's why Byron recommends the floating plants, they will utilize these things very rapidly because they are also pulling CO2 from the air itself, where it is probably more prevalant than in your tank.

If I were in your scenario, I would honestly consider buying distilled water from the local store, and adding Stabilize or something to it and using that for water changes. Your tank is small enough that it should be feasible/not too expensive, and then it should be more stable as well. The distilled water is basically RO water, so it lacks any minerals, but you can add these in to a level that you need. I wouldn't take my advice solely, see what others have to say about the idea...but it might be a solution to your vastly swinging pH issues.

 

[Byron]

I agree with jag on the cycling matter.  As for using bottled water, I wouldn't start down this road as your tap water does not seem to be unusable.  For one thing, there may come a time down the road when for whatever reason you need large multiple water changes and being able to use the tap water is much easier and safer.  But aside from this, the tap water is probably very safe for fish (soft water species) and if one can avoid adding chemicals and substances, all the better; these things do get inside fish.
 
On the pH.  As we determined previously, the GH and KH of your tap water are very low; thus, in any aquarium, the normal acidification will lower the pH.  With regular significant water changes (I recommend 50-60% once every week) this will stabilize; but if you keep adding this or that, then removing it, the system is not being allowed to stabilize.  Adding substances to raise the pH in this situation is fraught with problems because the buffering capacity in the water is basically non-existent.  So adding something like a few rocks that may be calcareous might not have much if any effect on the pH, or if they do, it will be temporary because there is still no buffer.
 
The pH of the tap water is likely at 7 becuase of something the water authority is adding, as I believe I referenced previously.  It would appear to be lowering in the aquarium, and if left aqlone should stabilize on the acidic side.
 
Re the cycling, jag is correct.  I would add some floating plants.

 

[MarcoPereira]

Thanks guys. Great to hear from you. I do have floating plants, amazon frogbit. As for the rocks, I thought they may add the buffering to the water? as they leach the carbonate hardness to maintain the Ph at a certain level? am I way off here? ha ha
I guess I would like the aquarium water to be at same Ph as tap water...and would not a WC of 50-60% throw the occupants out when they are in water of lower Ph? I mean, if the tank is at 5-6 Ph and one adds large water volumes that is at 7 Ph will that not harm the fish/shrimp? as it seem that there would be a huge Ph change in a brief time.

 

[Byron]

Thanks guys. Great to hear from you. I do have floating plants, amazon frogbit. As for the rocks, I thought they may add the buffering to the water? as they leach the carbonate hardness to maintain the Ph at a certain level? am I way off here? ha ha
I guess I would like the aquarium water to be at same Ph as tap water...and would not a WC of 50-60% throw the occupants out when they are in water of lower Ph? I mean, if the tank is at 5-6 Ph and one adds large water volumes that is at 7 Ph will that not harm the fish/shrimp? as it seem that there would be a huge Ph change in a brief time.

 
In a word, to answer your question, no.  This is a complex subject, water chemistry, because there are many factors that affect it.  But at some point, just using the tap water with fish and plants, the pH will stabilize.  Once it has, it will tend to remain there.  Water changes generally strengthen this, though it can work the opposite, but not in this case.  Your tap water is very low in GH and KH, and the pH is higher than it would otherwise be due to something being added by the water authority; this dissipates out fairly quickly, as it is not a "buffering" in the sense of a higher GH/KH would be.
 
My tap water is near-zero GH and KH, with a pH of 7 to 7.2 which is achieved by soda ash added by the water authority to raise the pH and prevent or reduce corrosion in the pipes.  It dissipates out, and when I do a 60% water change on my tanks every week, the tanks with a pH of say 5 remain at 5 following, or at most 5.2.  There is no problem with this, provided the fish are soft water requiring species.  Now shrimp are a bit different, as I previously mentioned, and there are species that will not do well in such water.
 
The "buffering" action from the rock is difficult to predict.  I do not know exactly what substance these rocks may be composed of, nor do I know how fast they break down.  Add to this the fact that they can behave differently in different tanks due to the source water and the biology of the tank.  I have experimented with substances like dolomite, aragonite and crushed coral, and there were issues with each.  In the end, I gave up and let nature do what it wanted, which gave me stability.

 

[MarcoPereira]

Ok well, I will just leave it alone and start adding 1-3 fish and see how I go....if there is a large spike in ammonia after the fish are introduced what is the right steps to rectify this? water changes? and if said BB are not active at low Ph should one add zeolite or some other source to negate ammonia?
Anything one can do to rid the tank of detritus worms....very unsightly...

 

[Byron]

Ok well, I will just leave it alone and start adding 1-3 fish and see how I go....if there is a large spike in ammonia after the fish are introduced what is the right steps to rectify this? water changes? and if said BB are not active at low Ph should one add zeolite or some other source to negate ammonia?
Anything one can do to rid the tank of detritus worms....very unsightly...

 
Any idea which fish you are intending?  Some are better than others in new tanks, not thinking of "cycling" here but "established" versus new.  Also numbers matter, obviously, but the species determine this too, and how many might be best.
 
I wouldn't worry about ammonia.  Though I would recommend some floating plants for this.  But with acidic water the ammonia is ammonium which is not going to hurt the fish.  And I wouldn't worry about nitrifying bacteria and pH.
 
The worms I can't help much with...strikes me as odd that they should appear in a new tank with no fish?  Maybe a remnant from the dead shrimp added for ammonia?

 

[jag51186]

Byron, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but if the water authority is adding something to affect pH that will dissipate out...Couldn't he let the water intended for changes, sit out for a day beforehand to allow this dissipation before using it for his changes??

 

[Byron]

Byron, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but if the water authority is adding something to affect pH that will dissipate out...Couldn't he let the water intended for changes, sit out for a day beforehand to allow this dissipation before using it for his changes??

 
Maybe.  I've no idea how long this takes.  I wasn't aware of this until another member pointed it out.  We don't know exactly what is being added (do we?).

 

[MarcoPereira]

 

Ok well, I will just leave it alone and start adding 1-3 fish and see how I go....if there is a large spike in ammonia after the fish are introduced what is the right steps to rectify this? water changes? and if said BB are not active at low Ph should one add zeolite or some other source to negate ammonia?
Anything one can do to rid the tank of detritus worms....very unsightly...

 
Any idea which fish you are intending?  Some are better than others in new tanks, not thinking of "cycling" here but "established" versus new.  Also numbers matter, obviously, but the species determine this too, and how many might be best.
 
I wouldn't worry about ammonia.  Though I would recommend some floating plants for this.  But with acidic water the ammonia is ammonium which is not going to hurt the fish.  And I wouldn't worry about nitrifying bacteria and pH.
 
The worms I can't help much with...strikes me as odd that they should appear in a new tank with no fish?  Maybe a remnant from the dead shrimp added for ammonia?
And, no, no idea what they are adding to the water supply....
 

 
Thank Byron. I am planning on nano fish such as ember tetras or chilli rasboras? neons? cardinals? would love a pair of Bolivian rams but am sure everyone here would be typing in uppercase and bold lettering "NO".....lol what would you recommend? 
And jag, that is something to think about regarding letting water stand before adding....would I use and air stone in this water to help dissipate Co2?

 

[Byron]

 I am planning on nano fish such as ember tetras or chilli rasboras? neons? cardinals? would love a pair of Bolivian rams but am sure everyone here would be typing in uppercase and bold lettering "NO".....lol what would you recommend?
 

 
This is 46 litres or 12 gallons.  Not sufficient for a pair of Bolivian rams, and I wouldn't consider a single one either (this species does very well in solitude, but they do get close to 4 inches).  Most of the "common" tetra are not suited, but the cardinals, neons or the false (green) neon would be OK.  Remember that these will grow, and then a shoal of whichever would make the tank space seem smaller.  Whereas a shoal of the "nano" type fish like the Boraras rasbora or Ember Tetra will not draw attention to the tank size so it visually seems larger.  A matter of perception.

 

[MarcoPereira]

Yes, I see what you mean. Could I add Corydoras? maybe 2 to keep substrate clean?
And in regard to fish stocks, how many to add? I would rather have one substantial school of one type than a mis mash of different things....I would feel it more harmonious that way....your thoughts?
 
And, as far as floating plants....I have frogbit but it gets pushed to outer corners of tank via HOB flow, what other things can I add to shade the tank in as far as floating plants? I have tried to find water sprite here but no luck...I have plenty of Elodea in the pond...would that work as floting plants? or foxtail?

 

[Byron]

Yes, I see what you mean. Could I add Corydoras? maybe 2 to keep substrate clean?
And in regard to fish stocks, how many to add? I would rather have one substantial school of one type than a mis mash of different things....I would feel it more harmonious that way....your thoughts?
 
And, as far as floating plants....I have frogbit but it gets pushed to outer corners of tank via HOB flow, what other things can I add to shade the tank in as far as floating plants? I have tried to find water sprite here but no luck...I have plenty of Elodea in the pond...would that work as floting plants? or foxtail?

 
Plants from a pond may require less warm conditions, depending upon your weather.  Elodea is a cold water plant, meaning that in heated tropical tanks it generally does not last.  Foxtail I would assume to be similar.
 
A good floater for currents is the stem plant Brazilian Pennywort, Hydrocotyl leucocephala.  I have used this plant floating more than once in various tanks.  The leaves will grow flat at the surface, with small roots dangling down from each node.  A very nice floating plant in small tanks as it is not large (like Water Sprite and Frogbit) and can easily be pruned at each water change (remove the older end of the stems and retain the growing tip ends).  A stem will branch out too, creating a nice look.
 
On the fish, corys are shoaling fish so a minimum of five or six whatever species.  And yes, they are suitable.  While considered "substrate" fish they are fine provided they have lots of surfaces to browse over.  I have several species and the smaller ones tend to remain above the substrate much more than the larger, which would be unsuitable here anyway.  The "dwarf" species like Corydoras pygmaeus, C. hastatus and C. habrosus would be nice, in a group of at least 9; these species do best with more, and they need sand which I believe you have.  Some of the slightly larger species in a group of 5-6 or even 7 would work too.  The are over a hundred species now that fit this.
 
As for the upper fish, all those we have been mentioning previously need a shoal (group), and with these small species I always aim for larger groups, 10-12.  Acquire them at the same time, as shoaling fish always settle in faster and better the more there are.
 
Just a comment on fish keeping the substrate clean.,..none will.  Corys need dedicated food, such as the various sinking tablets/disks/pellets like Omega One shrimp pellets, Omega One Veggie Rounds, Nutrafin Tabs [I happen to use these three] or similar.  Corys may or (more usually) may not eat other flake foods that happen to land on the bottom.  Snails are best for cleaning; Malaysian Livebearing Snails are my favourite as they burrow through all of the substrate, and there are also pond snails and bladder snails.  None of these three will harm live plants, but they eat any and all organics, including fish excrement, breaking it down faster for the various bacteria to deal with; and they get everywhere to do it.  Real helpmates.
 
Byron.

 

[MarcoPereira]

Thanks Byron. One question though...would not adding a group of 5 or 6 of whatever overwhelm the system? I mean, would the ammonia not get crazy high all of a sudden? and if so, what would one do to bring it down? I am sure a large WC would do it but at the risk of sounding lazy, I would hate to have to do water changes everyday....
Will look into the pennywort....sounds lovely.