Fluval Edge, No Cycle.....

[MarcoPereira]

Hi everyone. I must say, I am baffled...my new Fluval edge will not and has not started to cycle at all! I have been using fish food as ammonia supply for the last 2 weeks and yet nothing. We can not buy ammonia here in Australia as it is deemed a hazardous chemical or something ridiculous like that, but what else am I to do? I noticed that tank got very acidic, down to 6 from original 6.4-6.5.
Temperature is 26 C and water is crystal clear now. Have bogwood in there which may be cause of acidity but remedied that by adding a level teaspoon of bi carb soda to raise Ph and Kh, have live plants and no fish. Used Seachem Prime for the water when setting it up and Stability to get the filter going but as of today, nothing is happening.
What am I doing wrong? I am fairly new to this and have read the Nitrogen cycle over and over again and am at a loss.
Any help or tips will really make my day.
Am thinking of taking out some bogwood and only having a small piece in there. Would like to make it into a biotope style amazon river with relevant plants and fish but to scared to even begin in this adventure if I can not even cycle a tank.
Cheers.

 

[cynic]

Your plants are processing the ammonia.

 

[MarcoPereira]

Your plants are processing the ammonia.

Really? that I never knew. So does that mean they have to be removed? or should I add more fish food to allow bacteria to also have something to eat?
BTW tonight, just for a giggle, I tested ammonia and it is showing o.5 ppm ! so there is finally ammonia, but alas, no nitrites yet.
When should one do a water change? only when nitrates show?
Thank you for your reply.

 

[cynic]

Its a bit complex and the proper plant guys will know better explanations.

Plants use amonia same as the bacteria in the filter to generate nitrites and nitrates.

Plants use the nitrites and can convert nitrate back but its easier for them to use amonia if they can get it.

Thats how i inderstand it. I believe its possible to balance fish and plants to mutual benefit so not needing a filter but thats way above my level.

Your tank will still cycle but you need to allow for the plants with the amonia seeding.

 

[the_lock_man]

Not quite.
 
Plants use ammonia as food, but they do not then produce nitrite or nitrate - in fact they will use nitrate as food as well. I must admit, I'm unsure if plants will use nitrite for food.
 
This is the major problem with using fish food as an ammonia source - it's just not controllable. I would suggest increasing the amount of food you use. Bear in mind, as well, that you need less bacteria because you have plants. 
 
By the way, it is definitely possible to balance plants and fish such that the plants use all the ammonia produced by the fish, it's called a silent cycle, and one day, when I'm older and all grown-up, I'm going to be brave enough to try it!! You do need a significant amount of plant coverage in the tank, and a relatively small number of fish to do it successfully.

 

[fluttermoth]

I would add a couple of points to the lock man's advice.

You'd be better off using something like a prawn or shrimp (just one from the supermarket), as modern fish foods are deliberately manufactured not to produce ammonia.

I would also advise you leave the prawn to rot/decompose in a separate container, and then use the water from that to add to the tank. As well as giving you more control, it'll stop your tank getting messed up with rotting food. You can also leave the prawn container somewhere outside (garage or shed), as it does tend to smell a bit!

 

[cynic]

Not quite.
 
Plants use ammonia as food, but they do not then produce nitrite or nitrate - in fact they will use nitrate as food as well. I must admit, I'm unsure if plants will use nitrite for food.
 
This is the major problem with using fish food as an ammonia source - it's just not controllable. I would suggest increasing the amount of food you use. Bear in mind, as well, that you need less bacteria because you have plants. 
 
By the way, it is definitely possible to balance plants and fish such that the plants use all the ammonia produced by the fish, it's called a silent cycle, and one day, when I'm older and all grown-up, I'm going to be brave enough to try it!! You do need a significant amount of plant coverage in the tank, and a relatively small number of fish to do it successfully.

I wasnt sure. I know they use amonia if its there and will use the nitrates and such breaking them down.

Didnt want to give the impression the plants gave off nitrates.

 

[MarcoPereira]

Now I have learnt a new aspect of what may be going on, so the plants are basically acting as mini filters and robbing ammonia from the bacteria in the tank...makes sense in a way and as far as moving forward I will try out the shrimp technique. Would a piece of fresh salmon also work?
 
PS just to advise that ammonia has actually shown last night and it is sitting at 0.5 ppm, no nitrites or nitrates yet though..... when do I do a water change? and, I hear it isn't that beneficial to do it yet as tank is just beginning to cycle?

 

[MarcoPereira]

I would add a couple of points to the lock man's advice.

You'd be better off using something like a prawn or shrimp (just one from the supermarket), as modern fish foods are deliberately manufactured not to produce ammonia.

I would also advise you leave the prawn to rot/decompose in a separate container, and then use the water from that to add to the tank. As well as giving you more control, it'll stop your tank getting messed up with rotting food. You can also leave the prawn container somewhere outside (garage or shed), as it does tend to smell a bit!

 
Also, fluttermoth, how much of fish/shrimp smelly water should I add at a time? enough to read 3 ppm or higher with ammonia kit?
Sorry if a dumb question....
Thanks again.

 

[StevenF]

I have been using fish food as ammonia supply
 

 
Fish food is a very poor source of nitrogen and you are just throwing money away.  Your own urine would work a lot better and it is free. It also contains potasium and phosphorous which plants also need.  It also contains some salt which they don't need.  So don't over do it.
 

Your plants are processing the ammonia. 
 

 
Plants need nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorous to grow.  Plants cannot use N2 gas.  However they can use Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate as well as potassium nitrate, ammonium nitrate (a explosive), and many other nitrogen containing chemicals including those in Urine.  In fact plants may filter the water better than any mechanical filter.
 
At this time you might be able to start adding fish.  however at this time you don't know how quickly your plants can process it or how much they can handle.  I would be a good idea to spike the tank with some nitrogen and monitor it to see how fast it goes away.  If it goes away quickly you could start adding fish.  But do it slowly.  If you plan to have some shrimp or snails add a small number of them first to help clean up the food sitting on the bottom of your tank.  As they produce nitrogen the plants and bacteria will grow to keep up with the production.  However there may be times when nitrogen buildup may exceed what the plants and bacteria can consume.  So keep a close eye on ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite.  Cycle the water if it appears.  If things go well start adding fish.   
 
As plants grow they may deplete the water of potassium, phosphorous, calcium, magnesium, and other elements.  If these elements get scarce the plants may stop growing and nitrogen may start to build.  cycling the water to add them back, or add a small amount of plant food such as Flourish comprehensive to restore plant growth[SIZE=25.2px].  [/SIZE]

 

[MarcoPereira]

 

I have been using fish food as ammonia supply
 

 
Fish food is a very poor source of nitrogen and you are just throwing money away.  Your own urine would work a lot better and it is free. It also contains potasium and phosphorous which plants also need.  It also contains some salt which they don't need.  So don't over do it.
 
Your plants are processing the ammonia. 
 

 
Plants need nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorous to grow.  Plants cannot use N2 gas.  However they can use Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate as well as potassium nitrate, ammonium nitrate (a explosive), and many other nitrogen containing chemicals including those in Urine.  In fact plants may filter the water better than any mechanical filter.
 
At this time you might be able to start adding fish.  however at this time you don't know how quickly your plants can process it or how much they can handle.  I would be a good idea to spike the tank with some nitrogen and monitor it to see how fast it goes away.  If it goes away quickly you could start adding fish.  But do it slowly.  If you plan to have some shrimp or snails add a small number of them first to help clean up the food sitting on the bottom of your tank.  As they produce nitrogen the plants and bacteria will grow to keep up with the production.  However there may be times when nitrogen buildup may exceed what the plants and bacteria can consume.  So keep a close eye on ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite.  Cycle the water if it appears.  If things go well start adding fish.   
 
As plants grow they may deplete the water of potassium, phosphorous, calcium, magnesium, and other elements.  If these elements get scarce the plants may stop growing and nitrogen may start to build.  cycling the water to add them back, or add a small amount of plant food such as Flourish comprehensive to restore plant growth[SIZE=25.2px].  [/SIZE]
 


 
 
Thank you for your very precise analysis and I guess it all makes sense. As far as my own urine, perhaps not.....ha ha ha. It is just very hard for us here as we can not acquire pure ammonia at a hardware store or supermarket, so hence, the fish food. I am however rotting a piece of salmon in a tub of water to try and get ammonia that way as was suggested by another member. All going well, that smelly water may bring the ammonia up to a decent level and hopefully start this cycle properly.

 

[MarcoPereira]

Further update everyone. I put a piece (small) of fresh salmon into a small tub of water and left it out in the sun....gross. I decided to test it tonight to see if any ammonia was created or released...the test read 4ppm! is this solution good to use now on my aquarium to start the cycle properly? and if so, how much of it should I use to reach the constant 3-4 ppm in the Fluval edge as I read in the article re- fishless cycling?
Also, I have decided that the sand and hardscape is too dark for my liking in this tank since lighting is so poor...can I change the sand for a whiter sand and hardscape and rely on the filter having some bacteria to keep cycle moving along? I know it is not ideal but the tank looks to dark, even for my planned amazon look....and, the bogwood I know will give me Ph problems in the future as water became very acidic (6 or less) and that may have been the problem in starting the cycling. I will use only one small piece of twisted manzanita instead of the malaysian bogwood.
Hope you can all offer some further advice.
Thank you again, so glad I found this site.

 

[fluttermoth]

That was a great idea with the salmon; glad it worked!

As your tank is only small, it's not going to have any big messy fish in it, so cycling to around 2PPM of ammonia should be plenty; that means you want to use about half fishy water to get the cycle started.

I've heard of people using urine to cycle, but fresh urine doesn't actually contain ammonia, only urea, so again you'd be having to wait for that to denature into the ammonia you want. I'm sure it's a viable method though!

You can certainly change out your decor at this stage, if you want. In mature tanks (we generally consider tanks that have been running more than six months as 'mature', rather than just cycled) you do get a 'biofilm', consisting of various bacteria and microorganisms, living on all the surfaces in the aquarium, but at this stage it will be minimal, if there at all.

And it's always the case that the majority of your beneficial bacteria will be in the filter.

I'm glad we're being able to help; fishless cycling without access to ammonia is certainly an interesting challenge for us all

 

[MarcoPereira]

That was a great idea with the salmon; glad it worked!

As your tank is only small, it's not going to have any big messy fish in it, so cycling to around 2PPM of ammonia should be plenty; that means you want to use about half fishy water to get the cycle started.

I've heard of people using urine to cycle, but fresh urine doesn't actually contain ammonia, only urea, so again you'd be having to wait for that to denature into the ammonia you want. I'm sure it's a viable method though!

You can certainly change out your decor at this stage, if you want. In mature tanks (we generally consider tanks that have been running more than six months as 'mature', rather than just cycled) you do get a 'biofilm', consisting of various bacteria and microorganisms, living on all the surfaces in the aquarium, but at this stage it will be minimal, if there at all.

And it's always the case that the majority of your beneficial bacteria will be in the filter.

I'm glad we're being able to help; fishless cycling without access to ammonia is certainly an interesting challenge for us all

 
 
Thank you Fluttermoth, as per usual you have been a tremendous positive influence. I will check ammo tomorrow morning as did not add enough of the stinky water and had to add some more....tank has gone a bit cloudy now as the fish solution was milky....at least it is a start of something...
How often should I add a dash of this solution? and, should I continue adding Seachem stability? or is it just worthless?
Thank you again.

 

[MarcoPereira]

Here is what it looks like at the moment.....any thoughts on how to make this more "Amazon-ish"?