Doing it all wrong already - Help put me right

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frannyscho

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:(
I wish I'd found you first...I've done a bit of reading and I've inadvertantly done all the ignorant beginner things.

Lovely tank, placcy plants for beginners, put anti clorine stuff in and anti stress drops, waited the advised 10 days for water to be ready for fish. Took water sample and was deemed ready for 3 Mollys, a Platy and a Danio. One each for us and our three children who have been begging for a pet for ages.
Had these for two weeks, during which time the platy got a white spot on the tail which was treated with some blue stuff, and we were given some health salts, it seemed to go. Went back to the shop today with a sample to get a bottom feeder fish to keep the tank clean we thought.

NO - Ammonia at danger levels,advised to do immeadiate third water change, and a quarter one every day for a week, and not to feed them for four days. Silver Molly not happy and is floating to the top alot and rolling around on the gravel when he can get there. Goes to sleep curled around a plant for anchorage. Other fish seem twitchy not peaceful.

I hate the idea that these poor fish are near sacrifices to settle the tank. I would never have bought the fish yet had I realised. I also have the fear of a nine year old boys tears when his fish dies. I was told this tropical fish thing was not much more trouble than keeping a goldfish. Probably not if you know what you are doing....

Can someone please give me a step by step idiots guide to the next few weeks to try and reduce the suffering of these poor creatures at my ignorant hands.
 
I'm a beginner too really but I know what you're suffering. After just three days with the fish in the new tank the ammonia started to rise significantly. One of the lil fish died sadly but I immediately started doing water changes every other day and feeding them alot less. My tank has live plants in it which went in the same day as the fish. I think that was a mistake they shouldn't have allowed at the store too. The filter was the issue. As a new filter it can't cope with it all because all it's components are new and haven't matured. So far the rest are ok and we have a fry in the tank already. (Totally unexpected I can assure you!)
Hugs,
P.
 
OK, the best thing you can do is daily water changes. Small ones of about 15 %. That really is the only thing you can do I'm afraid :/ It will take a good few weeks for the tank to "cycle". If you'd like to understand more about the Nitrogen Cycle, read this article.
I know there's a lot to take in when starting fishkeeping, and most people actually encounter this site because they are new fishkeepers or have run into a problem they cannot solve. Do not feel alone in that respect.

Good luck :)
 
Right. First off, are you prepaired to return all the fish and start over? This is realy the best thing for both you and the fish.

What size tank is this BTW?

Now, before I start my (hopefuly informative) rant, I just wanted to tell you that, actualy, goldfish and tropicals SHOULD be treated in exactly the same manner excluding water temperature. The only reason people manage to mis-treat goldfish is because of the various myths surrounding their keeping, a lot of misinformation and the unfortunate fact that goldfish are exceptionaly hardy. It isn't usualy the goldfish-keepers fault, mind, but the fault of the people who sell them and don't tell you about their true needs. A single goldfish requires 20 gallons of water to itself. They like to be in groups. They get to 12" and they can live to be 30 years old. All the stuff abotu them 'growing to the size of the tank' and so on is just plain nonsense.

Anyway, I'm sure this doesn't realy concern you right now :p so I'll go on with the 'rant':

You MUST get your own test kit. This realy is essential. It isn't very expensive and will last a long time. The liquid-based ones are best. Those strip-type ones with the paper that changes color or whatever need to be replaced regularly and aren't accurate. Avoid them despite the cheaper price - they will be a loss in the long run.

The reason you need the test kit is to monitor your ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte levels. You see, right now, your tank is going through a 'cycle'.

The cycling process is basicaly this: Fish produce waste, waste contains ammonia, ammonia is converted to nitrItes by good bacteria, nitrItes are then converted to nitrAtes by some other good bacteria. Once the process is complete, you do weekly partial (20-25%) water changes with de-chlorinated water to remove the nitrAtes.

The reason this cycle is so important is that ammonia and nitrIte is incredibly toxic. Right now, your fish are being poisoned by their own waste. NitrAte is less harmful but still should be removed regularly to keep it below 40ppm. Better still, keep it under 20ppm by doing water changes at least weekly, not over-feeding and not over-stocking.

Now I'm going to tell you about the 'good bacteria' that convert all the harmful stuff to nitrAtes. They lvie in the gravel and in your filter media. Chlorine kills them. For these reasons, de-chlorinator is essential or your tap water, with all the chlorine it has in it, will kill off these good bacteria as well as irritating your fish. Also, the fact that most of teh good bacteria live in your filter media (the spongy stuff that 'filters' out any debris), means you shouldn't replace the media regardless of what the instruction booklet claims. If your filter gets clogged up, take the media out, rinse it in old tank water taken out from a partial water change. Then put it back in the filter.

If ever you realy need to replace it (seriously - only if it starts to disintegrade), only take out half at a time and leave a period of one week in between so the bacteria get to colonise the new media. Honsetly though, you don't need to worry about this just yet.

You can detect the cycle happening by testing your water. First, ammonia 'spikes' at its highest point as the fish waste accumulates. Then, good bacteria start to grow which change the ammonia to the nitrItes I talked about before. The ammonia will now be dropping and the nitrIte rising. It will soon 'spike' as well. Then more good bacteria grow that result int eh lowering of nitrItes and a 'spike' in nitrAte. Atrictly speaking, the nitrAte 'spike' isn't a 'spike' as it would increase indefinately if you didn't do water changes. This whole process will take a couple of weeks if you cycle without fish (using pure ammonia), 6 weeks or more if you cycle with fish as you are now attempting to do.

Now, as to what you are going to have to do for the next few weeks, possibly longer:
Do a water change daily. Do one today and for every day following until your ntirItes start to fall. These water changes will prolong the process but the fact is that the fish, particularly the mollies, won't make it otherwise. Something you can do to speed up the process, possibly even make it instantaneous if you are lucky, and which I strongly suggest you do is to ask your LFS for some used filter media and/or gravel. By 'used' I mean media right out of one of their tanks, that has fish in it, from inside one of the working filters. This media will contain a lot of the good bacteria. Take it home quickly (to minimize the number of bacteria lost in transit) and put it in your own fitler (instead of a piece that was in there already). If you can get this media today or tomorrow, you may just be able to save the fish. Using gravel in a similar way can also help - get some gravel (as much as possible within reason) from inside a tank at your LFS and put that in your tank. It will have the same effect as the filter media. Regardless of which method you go for, make shure the filter media/gravel is coming out of a tank that looks healthy - there shouldn't be any sick or dead fish in the tank.

A few more things I suggest you get while you are at your LFS: The used gravel/media obviously, a liquid-based test kit that includes ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte (pH is useful to know as well), a gravel vacuum if you don't have one already (once your tank is cycled, you should use it for your weekly water change - while it is still cycling, however, you won't want to use it and mix up the gravel where the bacteria are beginning to colonise just yet). Also, I strongly suggest you buy some frozen foods - bloodworms and brine shrimp are great.

Also(from your local supermarket this time :p), get yourself some frozen peas - the typical green ones. For the next week, you'll be taking a pea every day, microwaving/boiling till the 'skin/shell' can be removed (takes about 10 seconds to soften it up in a microwave), de-shelling it, crushing it and then feeding it to your fish. Any leftovers after about an hour should be removed or they'll rot and add to the already high ammonia levels. The pea may or may not work wonders for your molly. It sounds like it has a swim bladder problem but there's realy little else you can do for it at the moment.

Make sure you are only feeding once a day and doing your 25% daily water change about an hour afterwards. If you see algae growing in your tank BTW, don't remove it. It will actualy help absorb ammonia/nitrIte/nitrAte and will help keep these harmful chemicals' levels down now that it is so important (live plants have a similar effect but leave that for now). Once the tank is safe, you can scrape the algae off for aesthetic reasons.

I think that's it. I just want to remind you to tell me what size tank you have and whether you would be prepaired to return the fish. This realy would be the best option to be honest. In fact, if your tank is small, you may have to return a few fish anyway. If you do agree to return all of them, a fishless cycle will be very quick to do on your tank and it can also be sped up with used filter media/gravel like I described before. How to do a fishless cycle is pretty much covered in the link in my signature. There;s also some other informative articles I have linked to there so do read them. They basicaly cover what I have written but in more detail and there are some useful tips.

Oh, one more thing. I don't want you to do anything about this until after the tank is cycled but, zebra danios should be in groups of 5 at least. Also, mollies and platies are livebearers. the general rule for these fish is that you should have 2 females for every male. Otherwise, they should all be the same sex. The reason for this is that the males will chase any females and can seriously stress them out to the point at which they become ill and die. By having 2 females for every male, this chasing behaviour and the attention of the male(s) is spread out. You can tell what sex your fish are by looking at the anal fin. That's the fin udner the body just before the tail and behind the pair of fins under the body called the 'ventral fins'. If the anal fin is fan-shaped, the fish is female. If it is pointed and tube-like, the fish is male and what you are seeing is a 'gonopodium' - a modified fin used to deposit sperm packets directly into the female. The female then gives birth to lvie young. You should also eb aware that livebearers breed like crazy and that, even if you only have females, they can still produce fry (babies) as they can store sperm for several months. Luckily (in a strange way), most fry will get eaten. However, if there are enough hiding places, some will survive. This is ok in a large, cycled tank, but not good in one that is still cycling and unstable. To guarantee that you won't get fry, all your livebearers have to be male.

There's also an 'inch epr gallon guideline' that many fish-keepers use to determine the number of fish you can keep in a tank. It only applies to small fish and, even then, may not apply, but, in your case, it may prove a useful guideline. Basicaly, the guideline states that for every inch of ADULT fish (that is you use the potential adult size of the fish), there should be one gallon of water in your tank. Mollies get to 4" (sometimes more), platies to 1.5" and zebra danios to 1.5". So, by the guideline, you need a 15 gallon tank at least. However, danios are one of the fish this doesn't apply to as they need a 20 gallon minnimum due to activity levels. If you have anything smaller than that, you need to return your danio. If you have a 10 gallon, you should take back the mollies and the danio. The platy would be fine though and platies also happen to be very hardy so may be good to cycle with if you decide you don't want to fishless cycle after all.

Yes, I think I'm done now. :D

Welcome to the forum! I'm sure others have posted by now but nevermind... Don't be too hard on yourself - we all make mistakes, you obviously want to rectify them and it isn't your fault you didn't get any good advice originaly. Good luck! :)
 
:no:
I think it's too late for silver molly and a 9 year olds tears. He is very still at the bottom of the tank and has tucked himself down under the plant, probably to die I suppose....My boy is at school so he doesn't know yet and I haven't poked it to see if it moves yet. I will go to the shop and ask them if they will babysit the others for me until my tank is sorted, and or give me some gravel or the filter stuff. Would it help if I took a bucket and asked for some better cycled water?
It is a 30L Rena Kid Maxi Light tank, one of those half hexagon mirror backed 40cm height beginners kits, complete with internal filter, childsafe watertight lighting system, placcy plant, fish net, gravel, stress coat and stress zyme sachets. All designed to look pretty in your living room - nice morturary eh?!!!!
The other two mollies are the small 3cm fat bellied ones, one silver and one black, both female, the platy is a 3-4cm sunset one, and the tiny danio a zebra. The silver/black molly was an ordinary 5cm male.
Blast though, this was supposed to be something lovely and exciting, not heartbreak, tears, stress and disappointment....
 
stick with it, it will take time to get used to the workings but as soon as your tank has established its “cycle” it will be most enjoyable, I spent ages trying to get it right, starter kits are good but “Not Best” :sad: you will find sooner rather than later you need a better filter better lighting and so on and so on, take your time and be patient with the process, take as much advice from the pro’s on here, and in no time I will be good! Chin up! :nod:
 
If I read your post right and it is 30 litres then you need to return your danio. As sylvia said they like to be in groups but your tank is simply not big enough for danios.
You will need to be very careful not to overstock your tank especially at the beginning.
I would suggest you start a new post with tank dimensions and the type of fish you like so that you can get ideas of what to put in there.

If you got your tank and danio at the same place then shame on the people who sold it to you, they should know better.

Sylvia's long post contains all the information you need and is a fantastic summary so just follow her advice.

Good Luck and don't panic. My four year old has coped fine with the fish deaths we had before we found out about cycling! Honestly is there an lfs that ever mentions that you have to cycle your tank?!
 
Honestly is there an lfs that ever mentions that you have to cycle your tank?!

Far too few, from what I have found, value good fishkeeping above selling fish.

I made all the same mistakes when I first got a fish tank. The same shop I bought the 45 litre tank from sold me 2 platties, 2 angels, 6 glow light tetra, 2 bala sharks and a male betta the following weekend. While I, and most other people in this situation, have to take most of the blame for failing to research the needs of fish before buying them, fish shops should be more responsible.

Luckily I managed to find a good fish shop which rehomed the betta and the sharks and I have been going back there for years.
 
While I, and most other people in this situation, have to take most of the blame for failing to research the needs of fish before buying them, fish shops should be more responsible.

Oops, made it sound like it was just down to the lfs didn't I?! Sorry about that, I realise research is necessary also. I have to agree with Sylvia though that most people are entirely unaware of what is needed to keep goldfish.
In fact when I got my 20g I actually thought about goldfish as I thought it might be too small for tropical!! Needless to say I have learnt a lot from this forum and can honestly say I don't think I will ever keep goldfish - I just don't think I would have the room. Also if I did get a bigger tank I think I would fill it with more tropicals!!

Maybe a pond the size of my back garden is the answer!!!

Either way I wish pet stores would stop selling "Goldfish starter kits" which are basically tiny bowls with no filtration. They always tell you "Oh yes, two goldfish will be fine in there"!
 
:byebye:
Molly still not moved. Should I leave it there until 9 year old gets back?

Been back to the shop. No used gravel or filter media available, didn't want the fish back either. Did sell me an essential mini master test kit for £19.99 and I got two plants to boost the oxygen levels and use some ammonia up. Need I worry about hidden snails?

If you are a newbie it almost doesn't matter what you are told about levels of this and that because you don't understand anyway....If they say they are giving you tougher fish you of course believe them. Yes it was the same shop (and sales assistant) for the tank and the Danio fish.

What about the post? Has anyone got a bit of filter available??? Gravel is probably too heavy. Will the bacteria live for a day in the post? I will refund the postage.

Will do the levels, change 15% of the water and post later. Thanks everyone, I don't feel such a beast now.
 
If your Molly as still not moved yet - are you sure it's actually still alive ? :blink: it might well not be. I recommend you check properly and remove it asap if it's dead. If dead, wrap the fish in some paper towel and dispose of in kitchen waste bin. Do not flush down the toilet.
It won't be nice for your child to see the dead fish - even though death is part of life.

I'm afraid the bacteria will start dying in a couple of hours, so posting you some filter media is not an option - sadly.

Seeing that the shop won't take them back, I advise daily small water chances to keep the ammonia down.

Good luck.
 
:-(
James Pond is no more....


Molly is officially as dead as a dodo sadly. Have moved it out, but I expect small boy would like to bury it with a decent funeral in the garden. Other fish seem quite excited by real plants and are going bananas all round them. Are fish really such characters? I promise to try much harder now.

:byebye: :byebye: :byebye: :byebye:
 
Are fish really such characters? I promise to try much harder now.

Firstly, yes you will notice that as your fish settle in and gain confidence in their surroundings they will start to display their real characters. I love watching my fish, they can be very funny!
Secondly, will you stop beating yourself up. We all make mistakes and you are definitely not the first and won't be the last. In a few months you will be giving advice to other newbies!!
The important thing is that, not only are you asking for advice, but you also seem to be acting on the advice given to you which is great.

Maybe if you post where you live somebody on the forum might have some gravel and they might also run some of your media in their tank for a week. I live in aberdeenshire so if you live near me I will easily do this for you. If not somebody else might, it's worth a try.

Oops just noticed you have posted where you live!!! Can't help you with that one then, sorry!
 
I'm too far from Oxford to help you out, but these people might be able to:

Maidenhead Aquatics at Oxford
57, London Rd, Wheatley, Oxford, Oxfordshire OX33 1YJ
Tel: 01865 876516

If they are as good there as they are in the branch near me, I'm sure they'll be able to give you some good filter media to get your tank back on track.

Make sure you shop around for a good fish shop before buying any more fish, there are some out that there that give you good advice and actually care about the homes that their fish are going to, the key is finding the right one and Maidenhead Aquatics near me are excellent. There are many shops closer and more convinient, but I'd much rather go somewhere that looks after their fish while they have them and make sure you know how to look after them when you take them home.
 

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