After 7 months of healthy fish, total die-off. Help!

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I was very careful using the buffered solutions to calibrate the pH meter and then test it. I also tested against 2 known samples and it was very accurate.

I understand the soft water contributes to the low pH, and I appreciate your explanation of that, as even a guy who has been doing for decades was clueless about what could cause pH to drop that low.

I will find some Aragonite as you mentioned!
 
My pH meter finally arrived.

I rinsed with DI, calibrated it using 3 different buffer solutions to ensure precision, and tested tap water. That was 8.60, dead on from what the water co. says it should be.

Now when I tested my degassed tank water....

In case you can't read that. It's 2.91 pH.

So....... now what... wow!!!! How is it even possible?????

Test your degassed water with your old chemical test kit. if the meter is correct it should bottom out. Another thing you can do to test for Low PH in the bucket is to put a sea shell, calcium carbonate, or baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) in the it. That should start bubbling as the acid reacts with the carbonate. After confirming the acidic water dump it and clean the container. Is it a plastic container? If so clean it and look for contamination. If the water is truly that acidic don't touch the water unless you are wearing acid proof gloves. It will burn the skin. Carbonates will eventually neutralize the water but it might take a lot to do it.

I don't really trust the cheep PH meters. Last year I purchase A high quality one but if you don't keep up with the calibrations, use cleaning and storage solutions it my not fail or loose accuracy in a year. CO2 cannot generate a PH reading of 2.9. From my own research a PH of 4 is about as low as CO2 saturated water can go. Nitric acid, sulfuric acid and hydro chloric acid are the only things I know of that can generate that PH reading if it is correct.

Where is your degassed water stored? any stored household cleaning solutions near by? Furnace? These may create fumes that can disolve in water causing low PH. Also put some tap water in a glass and start monitoring it. The PH should stay stable or maybe increase slightly as CO2 out gas. If it drops you have an issue and might have to consult your water provider.
 
I was very careful using the buffered solutions to calibrate the pH meter and then test it. I also tested against 2 known samples and it was very accurate.

I understand the soft water contributes to the low pH, and I appreciate your explanation of that, as even a guy who has been doing for decades was clueless about what could cause pH to drop that low.

I will find some Aragonite as you mentioned!

I would like to see Steven's assessment now we have the pH probably firm. As I said, I've not used shells, but it may be as easy. Some form of calcareous buffering should solve this.

It is interesting, I have to my knowledge never had the pH drop this low, and I have zero GH/KH in my water. Maybe I should get a pH meter, might surprise me. :hyper:

The other thing to lookinto, just to know, is what the water authority are adding to raise the pH. They should have this on their website, or can answer your call. I like to know what is in my fish water, even if it is harmless or something I can't avoid anyway.

Edit. Steven posted as I was typing.

Byron.
 
It is interesting, I have to my knowledge never had the pH drop this low, and I have zero GH/KH in my water. Maybe I should get a pH meter, might surprise me. :hyper:

If you measure PH, GH, and KH daily you probably will be surprised. Using tetra easy strips it is easy to check several times per day. Right now I have noticed by PH in the morning lights off is low but by the time I get home with the lights on it pegs the strip to its maximum level. Still not sure exactly why but it might be due to a fertilizer plant growth interaction. I have also seen some fast KH changes a couple of years ago. And when I got home from christmas holiday I found my water hardness had taken a substantial drop due to plant growth and no fertilizer for 2 weeks while I was gone.

I've not used shells, but it may be as easy. Some form of calcareous buffering should solve this.

I primarily suggested this in my last post to confirm the acidity of the water. While it might be a good long term solution I would like to understand were this acid is coming from.
 
Steven and Byron, thanks again to both of you.

I don't keep the water near anything that could possibly seep into it and convolute the readings, no.

Our water company doesn't publish anything related to what might be raising the pH. I read the water quality report from one page to the last with no mention of additives. I will call the 1-800 number tomorrow and see if they can answer that.

I can touch the water, just okay, so perhaps it isn't quite that low. Baking soda did react fairly strongly to it, though.

I ordered those Tetra easy strips tonight and they should be here Saturday.

I will post pictures of those ASAP as well.

I will also put a shell into the water. Can anyone link me to one on Amazon or is it an LFS kind of thing?
 
I will also put a shell into the water. Can anyone link me to one on Amazon or is it an LFS kind of thing?

By shell I mean sea shell, snail shell or coral. Obviously you can find these on the beach. It doesn't mater which species or where it is from. All that matters is that it is natural. Many LFS will sell these as decorations for aquariums or hermit crabs. My local Pet smart had a small bag of about 5 or six shells for a few dollars.

shells, and coral are made from calcium carbonate with about 2 to 10% magnesium carbonate. In acids they will gradually erode. As they do so they push the PH up. Once the PH reaches 7 the shell stops dissolving. In my experience It has never had a big impact on water hardness. And a single shell in my aquarium has easily lasted 2 years. however if your PH is 2 it probably would have a big effect on PH. In fact in a acid of PH2 I would not expect it to last long.

Personally I don't think your PH probe measurement was correct. Most PH probes have a small screw you turn when calibrating it. Did your PH probe have one or 2 adjustment screws? Also what PH buffers did you use?
 
I can not imagine the meter is accurate. I have never seen ph that low

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
 
If you measure PH, GH, and KH daily you probably will be surprised. Using tetra easy strips it is easy to check several times per day. Right now I have noticed by PH in the morning lights off is low but by the time I get home with the lights on it pegs the strip to its maximum level. Still not sure exactly why but it might be due to a fertilizer plant growth interaction. I have also seen some fast KH changes a couple of years ago. And when I got home from christmas holiday I found my water hardness had taken a substantial drop due to plant growth and no fertilizer for 2 weeks while I was gone.

Not meaning to hijack the OP's thread, but this may be of value to others too.

I have actually run some concentrated tests, though not recently. It was about two years back when I was advised I needed to up the GH for the plants (I knew they had a calcium deficiency). I was carrying out regular tests twice a day for GH and pH over a period of several weeks to months. After the first few weeks I trimmed these back, as the consistency was clear, and they have stopped during this past year. I concentrated on the GH and pH. Tap values were (and still are) GH 7 ppm (according to water authority; API test turned colour at 1), KH presumed near zero (API test turned colour at 1) and pH 7.0 to 7.2 due to addition of soda ash (sodium carbonate) by municipality to raise the natural pH which was close to 5 before they began using this in 2001.

I used Equilibrium to raise the GH to 4 or 5 dGH, in three of seven tanks; all seven also received Flourish Comprehensive, once weekly. No other additives. The GH remained at 4 (or 5) for the entire week; a 50-60% water change reduced it by exactly half, so at each water change I added sufficient Equilibrium to return it to 4 (or 5). Over a period of a few weeks experimenting (very gradual increase of Equilibrium added) I got this down exact. For months it never varied. The plants definitely improved (calcium deficiency disappeared), but the GH using the API liquid test never lowered during the week. Obviously it may have gone down a tad, but not sufficient to register.

The pH remained constant within each tank. The three receiving the Equilibrium remained in the low to mid 6's, while the pH in the other tanks remained below 6 or in the low 6's depending upon the tank, as it always had/has. The 50-60% water change raises the pH by 0 to 0.2, never more. This puzzled me a bit, until I learned that the soda ash is not permanent and easily dissipates out. I also assume that after several months, each tank's biological system was fairly stable and easily handled these sort of minor fluctuations. When I set up a new tank, the pH remains close to 7 for a couple weeks, then lowers as the system establishes, and stabilizes.

The diurnal pH shift common to planted tanks, which is what you observed in your own tanks, is minor in mine. I have found it to be 0.4 max. The Equilibrium seemed to have no affect on this. This fluctuation is of course due to the CO2 level changing, from its highest in the early morning after building over darkness to its lowest in the late afternoon after the plants had used most of it.

I discontinued Equilibrium about 15 months back, as part of resolving another issue in the 90g that I won't go into as it is unrelated. But to deal with the calcium deficiency, which did begin to reappear, I am now using Flourish Tabs next to the larger swords, aponogeton, red tiger lotus and a couple crypts. I replace these every second month, more often that the recommended 3-4 months, and it has worked; the plants are thriving without raising the GH a tad. I reduced the liquid Flourish Comp to deal with brush algae, and that worked. I seem to have got things balanced now, light and additives; the GH and KH is basically zero in all 8 tanks, and the pH is stable tank by tank, arolund 5 up to mid 6 depending upon the tank. I use the aragonite "buffer" in the 33g to maintain a pH of 6.6 solely for those fish.

Byron.
 
No worries on hijacking the thread, it's good knowledge.

I did use distilled water, instead of deionized water (woops, mislabeled bottle) so maybe that could have led to the problem and artifically low? Doesn't seem like it though...

Here is what I did to calibrate the pH meter.

There are 3 powders included with the pH meter. With them, you create buffered solutions of known pH, to calibrate the meter, at 4.00 pH, 7.00 pH, and 10.00 pH by combining 220 mL of water in a beaker with the powder and mix. I did this exactly how I would in the lab and just so happen to have beakers.

Each solution tested within 0.01 of what it was supposed to.

I then tested somewhat known samples for parity. Including red wine, Coca-Cola, vinegar, and of course, degassed tap water.

None of the samples I tested seemed to be out of spec by a drastic amount. So I feel like I can be confident in the pH meter, despite using distilled in place of DI.

Regardless I will do another full water change tomorrow after work. A problem I have with my siphon (perhaps I need a better one) is that the tank, at about 1 gal. remaining, becomes extremely troublesome to drain.

Again, though, I am concerned that if my pH meter does turn out to be wrong and the pH of the tank is closer to 6 (which is where both API kits I've used say it is) then I am again flummoxed by the death of what I'd consider to be hardy fish, including mollies and a Cory cat that is accustomed to gulping from the surface anyway.
 
I'll leave the pH calculations for Steven who knows more than I do about this chemistry. I just want to comment on your last sentence...

Mollies are not hardy fish, quite the reverse. They are extremely sensitive to ammonia, and obviously nitrite too. And they absolutely must have moderately hard or harder water, with a basic pH. In soft water or even slightly acidic pH, they do not last long. Remember that they will manage in marine tank water, though they do not need the salt, but the point is that the minerals (calcium and magnesium) must be appreciable for mollies, even more than other livebearers. So in a pH of 6 I would expect them to succumb within a couple months if not sooner.

As for cories, these too are sensitive to any level of ammonia, and I believe that was an issue with the food dumped in initially, so this would have seriously weakened them. I have maintained and spawned several species of wild caught cories for over 20 years, and I can vouch for the common information that they absolutely do not like changes in water, even from tank to tank can really set them back. Water quality is very important; they will have trouble respirating with almost any substance in the water, which is why plant additives and medications have to be very carefully considered.

Leaving out the calculation, I do have a couple comments on pH. I do think the pH may be the issue here, as your tests do indicate it is low, though just how low seems hard to determine. Your API test, like mine, reads down to 6, but if the test result is the yellow of 6, the pH could be much lower. I have a Tetra test kit that goes down to 5, and a few times if I read 6 on the API I will use the Tetra, and it is the colour of 5...which again means it could be even lower. I have some tanks that are 5 or lower, but I am very careful which fish I keep in them. My barb tank for example is the one I use the aragonite to maintain a 6.6 pH, as too low a pH and these fellows have difficulty.

I have done a fair bit of research into fish habitats over the years, especially more recently. Water data is sometimes difficult to pin down, as most tests are sporadic, i.e., not over a continual period of say a year, and daily--if such exist, I haven't yet found them. But there is some absolute data. Blackwater streams and rivers are basically zero in GH and KH. The pH in the Rio Negro has been tested as low as 3.9, though apparently 4.5 is more average. Discus, cardinals, many catfish, hatchetfish, some other cichlids...many fish thrive in this water. Many blackwater streams are as low.

The other thing that some will advocate is the alleged seasonal variances, in pH and in temperature. Most of this is simply myth. No where on this planet, where there is abundant life, are things as stable as they are in the tropical rainforest areas. The fluctuation in water temperature over a year are limited to a couple of degrees at most, and the diurnal fluctuation is usually no more. The rain will be slightly cooler, true, but as this swells the rivers we are talking about vast expanses of thousands of square kilometers, and warmth in the soil of the forest is another factor. I have not found evidence yet of significant fluctuations in chemistry or temperature, diurnally or annually.

Byron.
 
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Some very useful information in this thread.

For some reason, the pH in all my cycling tanks seems to become lower as it cycles, then raises almost .5 more. Possibly, the food which started it all, could be the cause of the odd pH?
 
Some very useful information in this thread.

For some reason, the pH in all my cycling tanks seems to become lower as it cycles, then raises almost .5 more. Possibly, the food which started it all, could be the cause of the odd pH?

Things can be fluctuating until the biological system becomes established, so many factors will affect it. What is the GH (general hardness) and KH (carbonate hardness, also termed Alkalinity) of the source water? This is part of the equation with pH. You can get this info from your municipal water authority if on city water, probably on their website.
 
There are 3 powders included with the pH meter. With them, you create buffered solutions of known pH, to calibrate the meter, at 4.00 pH, 7.00 pH, and 10.00 pH by combining 220 mL of water in a beaker with the powder and mix. I did this exactly how I would in the lab and just so happen to have beakers.

Each solution tested within 0.01 of what it was supposed to.

I then tested somewhat known samples for parity. Including red wine, Coca-Cola, vinegar, and of course, degassed tap water.

None of the samples I tested seemed to be out of spec by a drastic amount. So I feel like I can be confident in the pH meter, despite using distilled in place of DI.
Distilled instead of DI is not going to have a big impact on the calibration. There are 2 types of calibrations used for PH meters. 1 point and 2 point. A meter with one adjustment screw or knob can only be calibrated with one PH buffer. And you should use the PH buffer closest to the expected PH. The further away you get from the ph buffer the greater the error. The one point cal only adjusts the gain of the incoming electrical signal at one particular PH. In summary if you calibrate at PH4 and then test a PH10 and you have an error and make another adjustment you will likely then find the PH meter will now be off now at PH4 while it will be good at PH10. You can calibrate as many times as you want but the accuracy will not improve.

A meter with two screws or adjustment knobs can use 2 PH buffer solution (4 and 7are common). These meters are much more accurate at the extreme ends of ph scale while one point meters are not. The 2 point method adjust for gain and slop of the incoming electrical signal allowing for greater accuracy.

So depending on the last PH buffer you calibrated at and the actual ph reading of the stored water you meter may have been way off or reasonably close. A PH of 2 generally requires a very strong concentrated acid. A situation you don't likely have. That is why I don't think the PH reading of 2.9 is accurate.
 
For some reason, the pH in all my cycling tanks seems to become lower as it cycles, then raises almost .5 more. Possibly, the food which started it all, could be the cause of the odd pH?

Well if you have a planted tank a drop in PH could be caused by the plants absorbing potassium, magnesium, and calcium. These elements are the strongest ones commonly in a fist tank at pushing PH up. They are also primarily responsible for KH or alkalinity. KH makes the tank resistant to PH changes. loss of these elements will allow CO2 to push the PH down. The you do a water change some of these elements are added back and they will push the PH back up.
 
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OK, so I went ahead and bought two different kinds of water test kits.

I have the Tetra Easy Strips and also one I got from the hardware store.

For the Tetra, the pH reading was solid orange, it only goes down to 6.0, so we know it's acidic as we've established that. It doesn't rule out an even lower pH. It also, of course, tests for Nitrates (5ish ppm) and Nitrites (0 ppm) and general hardness which showed about 75 ppm, so soft water (which we know) and the KH (total alkalinity) was 0.

The one I got from the hardware store had colors which developed brightly, so I took a photo, which is attached.

The pH is definitely lower than 5. It's not quite the dark blood red of "2" but it's definitely closer to 2 than to 5, IMO. The camera did a good job representing the color there.

Other things measured are the same as Tetra and API, and also mirror those results... so that's good.

And I did a 9.5 gallon water exchange 2 days ago. The pH is definitely lower than 5.

So... where to go from here. Maybe take the plants out and see what happens? I love the "life" plants bring to the tank, and I want the practice with them, for when I get a bigger tank eventually.

I am going to the LFS tomorrow to discuss shells and other options.
 

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