84l (22gal) Fishless Cycle With A Semi-mature Filter.

You are doing fine Lazerus. It sounds like you have the pH thing under control for now. If you can maintain the pH without cutting back the CO2 too much, it is better to learn how to do it now rather than after you have fish in the tank. If the pH becomes too hard to control, be aware that a CO2 reading going from 0 to 15 ppm has much better effect on the plants than the move from 15 to 30. The 30 is an ideal cited in many places now but just a few years ago the target value was only 15 ppm.
 
Thanks for the replies....

Ok….just did a water test there….

Ammonia 0.05ppm
Nitrite 0.25ppm

And I’m disappointed to say that my pH has dropped right down again…it’s at 6.6. (Note: No CO²)

I really need to understand this process better…. If feel quite clueless. I’m going to read up a bit about it.

Anyway, I know I'll need to do another large water change, but I’m not doing it tonight...I'm busy, and I’m not going to add any more ammonia drops …I'll leave everything as it is, and it will just have to wait until the morning.
 
As long as you don't have fish in yet, give the tank a dose of sodium bicarbonate, baking soda. It will add some carbonate hardness, KH, and will raise your pH somewhat. It can be chancy when there are fish in the tank, because you don't want the rapid response you will get when there are fish present, but it can actually be used when there are fish present if you do it gradually enough. This will get things under control for the cycle until you can measure the hardness.
 
Ok, fair enough then :cool: ...I may do that so. I was afraid the bicarb would be hard to use or something

This is my first experience of 'fishless cycling' and I must say I'm enjoying the luxury of not having any pressure on me from poisoning my fish & breaking my neck trying to get water changes done! It is the way forward all right!

Anyway, My results this morning (with no added CO² or Ammonia drops)

Ammonia: 1ppm (up from last night!)
Nitrite: 0.25ppm
pH: 6.6 (going down!)

So, I guess there is still some ammonia being diffused from the plant substrate then.

Now...unfortunately we are snowed in here, and I was planning on heading over to get that kH tester...so thats knocked that on the head today anyway.

One other question...I normally use water from my cold tap, and top up with kettle water....now that was fine with my 10gal...but with a larger tank now, large water changes like yesterday will become a real chore so I'm wondering is it ok to use hot water tap for the duration of this cycling process?

I was always told NEVER to use the hot water tap as it contains coppers and other contaminants....but would it be ok while there is no fish in the tank as long as its de-chlorinated with Stresscoat+?
 
If you have plumbing that will actually put copper in the tank, you do not want to ever use it. Copper can be very hard to get out of a tank because it adheres to things like the silicon sealer. I am interested in why you expect copper from the hot water source. In my system, in the US, the water heater is lined with fiberglass so there is no chance of any metals contamination there. I have been led to believe that there are lots of other types of water heater in use in the UK but have no idea what Ireland calls a water heater. There are just so many different ways to heat water, including the kettle approach.
 
If you have plumbing that will actually put copper in the tank, you do not want to ever use it. Copper can be very hard to get out of a tank because it adheres to things like the silicon sealer. I am interested in why you expect copper from the hot water source. In my system, in the US, the water heater is lined with fiberglass so there is no chance of any metals contamination there. I have been led to believe that there are lots of other types of water heater in use in the UK but have no idea what Ireland calls a water heater. There are just so many different ways to heat water, including the kettle approach.
Hot water, in many houses in the UK, is stored in lagged copper tanks and we use copper piping for water supplies. Increasingly though combination boilers are being used for heating houses and water, meaning no hot water is actually stored - just heated by the boiler on demand so far less exposure to copper. If the OP is using the traditional method and taking hot water from the tap that could mean higher exposure to copper.
 
Hi again....

Yes, what Pammy says!!

I live in a 40year old house, and its all old piping.....the pipes are copper & so is the tank where the water is stored.

Plus on top of this the emersion tank where the water is heated & stored rarely gets emptied....as we don't have baths to empty it out (its not that we are smelly people, its just we have an electric shower. ^_^ ) so god knows what else it floating around in there!

Anyway....So, in relation to my tank, and my pH crashing and I ventured out today in the cold & snow, to a LFS but they didn't have a KH test...Doh!

In fact they said they never stock them separately? They only sell them as part of the API Marine master test kit....I rang another shop to ask them, and they said they only have the API master test kit also.

I'm going to have to go online and buy one, and wait a week or so till it gets here... What a nuisance.

What am I going to do in the mean time to sustain the good bacteria in my filter and get things back to normal.....should I put the bicarb in the water and then add some more ammonia?
 
Right....this is more for myself so I can log my results, but if anyone is interest I did a water test....

Ammonia is at 1ppm possibly at bit lighter (so we're going down again...good!)
Nitrite is at 0.25ppm
pH is at 6 or possibly less. Very pale yellow. So its crashed again.

I have added 2.5ml of Ammonia solution to the tank to hopefully bring up my ammonia to 5ppm again...I'll check in an hour.

And also I added 2 teaspoons of Bread soda (Sodium bicarbonate) to bring up my pH.... again, I'll check that later.

Right....talk about driving blindfolded!! I'm very unsure about what I'm doing really...but I found a great link that has a very clear post from Waterdrop and its really helped me alot. So thanks Waterdrop.

http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showto...9&hl=bicarb
 
Once again, this is for my own records...

1 hour after adding the ammonia & bicarb.

Ammonia: 4ppm (I don't have a 5ppm reading on my card, so it could be possibly be at 5ppm...its definitely not 8ppm though!)
Nitrate: 0.25ppm
pH: 7.8

So, all is good for tonight....

And can it be confirmed for me, that now that I'm adding bicarbonate of soda to raise my pH, does this mean for the duration of my fishless cycle, I do not need to do water changes like I did yesterday???

Or will I still need to do large water changes too?
 
The bicarb should hold the pH high very easily for you. The water change yesterday was an attempt to bring the pH up without the bicarb but in your case it failed to do so. It is likely that you will find you have very soft water when you get your test kit. For fish in the tank, the water would be more stable if you use some crushed coral or crushed shell rather than bicarb but that becomes much more important when you have fish. For now, there should be no need for adding anything to control pH because the bicarb will give you some buffering effect for a while.
 
Once again, this is for my own records...

1 hour after adding the ammonia & bicarb.

Ammonia: 4ppm (I don't have a 5ppm reading on my card, so it could be possibly be at 5ppm...its definitely not 8ppm though!)
Nitrate: 0.25ppm
pH: 7.8

So, all is good for tonight....

And can it be confirmed for me, that now that I'm adding bicarbonate of soda to raise my pH, does this mean for the duration of my fishless cycle, I do not need to do water changes like I did yesterday???

Or will I still need to do large water changes too?
No, you're right Laz, using the baking soda (bicarb) is just a more powerful way of raising KH than water changes during your fishless cycle. I often suggest starting out with perhaps 1 teaspoon per 50L of water as a starting point and then seeing what that does for helping the pH to hold high enough. If the pH is still slipping down pretty fast, then just add still more baking soda, gradually increasing the amount.

I'm not at all surprised you didn't find a freshwater KH kit waiting at your LFS. They are sort of "semi-rare." Sometimes you find them at really good independent stores but most often you just have to order them off the internet. Its not a difficult test technically, so most any brand should be ok. I use the TetraTest KH kit but the API KH/GH kit is also good.

So what does having a KH kit buy you? Well, in practical terms, you are "flying a little blind" when you alter KH and only measure it via pH tests, because pH is only changed in a secondary way by bicarb. With a KH test, you can follow the KH level directly and know ahead of time that when the KH drops, meaning the buffering is running out, the pH drop will soon follow. Not only does this help you have better timing for adding more baking soda, but it also kind of teaches you this stuff, which is fun! If you really want to get into it you can be reading some of the chemistry on wikipedia as you go along!

By the way, I agree completely with OM47's post above. Think of the whole baking soda thing as just for fishless cycling (even though technically its true what he says that it can be used with fish if done carefully) and just plan on stopping its use at the time of "the big water change before fish." Then after fish you will hopefully be able to handle your soft water via the good water changes you'll want to be doing to clean your gravel weekly. Your KH kit will help you measure how much KH you've regained from the water change. Because cycling will be over, there will be less downward pressure on KH and pH at that time. But if the water changes still can't do it, then "crushed coral in a mesh bag in the filter" will be the new method of choice, rather than baking soda.

By the way, you're doing great. Don't ever let the water chemistry stuff bother you, just keep going along and it will all seem more and more simple over time. :)

~~waterdrop~~
 
Waterdrop...to be honest, I think I've found my calling!!! I'm finding it all so interesting!!! I love all the testing and messing around. ^_^

Another reason I needed to do a large water change the other day aside from the pH drop, was to bring my sky high Ammonia levels back down to a manageable 5ppm....and that water change seems to have done it.

So, unless my Ammonia level rise like that again, I won't be changing my water, but just adding Bicarb until things level out...

I'm going to start adding my CO² today again now.....

Also, I'm off to do another water test now and see where I am.
 
OldMan....you are right!....my pH is holding nicely! Delighted!

The pH is the same as it was last night after I added the bicarb, around 7.6/7.8 so that was a success.

My Ammonia which was 4ppm (possibly 5pmm) is: 2ppm
My Nitrite is which was 0.25ppm is a shade of purple above 0ppm, but it not near 0.25ppm

I've added my CO² just there so we'll see what happens. Hopefully the pH will hold still. :good:
 
Just posting this evenings results.

This morning I started up my CO² diffuser again, so with that present in the tank, my results are:

Ammonia: 2ppm
Nitrite a shade above 0ppm
pH holding steady at 7.6/7.8 :cool:

Won't be adding any ammonia tonight.
 

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