84l (22gal) Fishless Cycle With A Semi-mature Filter.

Oh yea, one other question...

I have an old bottle of Nutrafin Cycle from ages and ages ago.....now I know what people say about this product being useless...but surely it must have some properties to help cycle a filter?

I'm so tempted to add it to my tank, but I'm worried it would throw everything off...would it? Or would it do any harm just to add some in?
 
I wouldn't think it would help anything but if you're feeling in need of a little "placebo action" it probably wouldn't hurt anything either, lol. The one thing I'd watch out for and perhaps would go slowly because of would be to measure whether it does anything to your ammonia level as you don't want that getting pushed up to 8ppm or anything. Some of those snakeoils have ammonia in them.

~~waterdrop~~
 
Ok so...I won't bother with it....I may as well just throw the bottle out.

Anyway, I did my water change yesterday, added my ammonia last night as usual and my stats this morning were:

Ammonia: 0.50pmm
Nitrite: Unreadable
Nitrate: More than 40pmm
pH: 6.6

So I did another water change this morning to bring down my Nitrates....then I added more ammonia.

Also, my entire tank is constantly covered in debris sort of like the dust you would find on top of a shelf in your bathroom if it hadn't been cleaned in ages. I wish it would go away.

You know I'm so sorry I went away that time....I think the fish food that I used has caused untold problems in the tank...its dirty looking, created loads of algae, brown blotches on the plants and bogwood and now these 'harmless' worms too....my tank looks just awful.

Oh well.
 
Unfortunately for you, fishless cycling and hi tech planted tanks just don`t go together.

Your best plan of attack would have been to spend the first two months doing everything to promote plant growth and keep the algae away. Your tank would have cycled by default, and hopefully looking green and healthy by now.

Dave.
 
Ok, Thanks....but I didn't think my tank was 'hi-tech'? Is it?

I thought it was bog standard like any one elses? :huh:

My tank is only set up three weeks ago, and all there is in it, is a few plants, gravel, plant substrate & some bog wood?

I used a small Tetratech co² canister for the first two weeks but have stopped using it at the moment. I certainly wouldn't catagorise that as hi-tech or complicated...you just squeeze the button to administer the dose each morning.

Anyway, sure I'll struggle on.
 
Unfortunately for you, fishless cycling and hi tech planted tanks just don`t go together.

Your best plan of attack would have been to spend the first two months doing everything to promote plant growth and keep the algae away. Your tank would have cycled by default, and hopefully looking green and healthy by now.

Dave.
This is a bit off-topic but it -is- interesting that nitrifying bacteria and plants do often both compete for the ammonium in an aquarium, don't they? Since the vast majority of our popular aquatic species of plants prefer to take up ammonium via the leaves, rather than nitrates via the roots, an aquarium sucked clean of ammonium by robust filter colonies will tend to force the plants to perhaps switch over to burning some of their energy converting nitrates back to ammonium inside the plant, right? And that would come at the expense of some plant growth I would think. This is without bringing fertilization into the picture I guess...

Dave, your comment about the sodium bicarb is interesting. There are supposed to be a couple of positive reasons for using baking soda to raise the pH and KH during a fishless cycle. The autotrophs grow fastest in a pH of about 8.0 to 8.4 and they also benefit from some calcium being present. Past a certain point, the baking soda does indeed help raise pH, but I suppose its true that calcium is really not being provided by baking soda, unlike crushed coral, which should really be adding some calcium and magnesium carbonates, right? (I realize I'm unlikely to get you interested in thinking about a tech aspect of fishless, which you don't do! :lol: ) But, you've reminded me of an important point about using baking soda during fishless -- it does provide buffering via the bicarb and so slows the arrival of a pH crash, but it doesn't help provide any calcium for the bacteria, so for people with very soft water, there may still be some positive things from a large water change around the time of a pH crash in a fishless cycle.

WD
 
Ok, Thanks....but I didn't think my tank was 'hi-tech'? Is it?

It isn`t a clearly defined definition, and not one I would say I am particularly fond of, but a nutrient rich substarte and CO2 injection would put you in this category.

If I were you, I would read up on the effects poor CO2 will have on algae (as in, it is possibly the single greatest cause).

This is a bit off-topic but it -is- interesting that nitrifying bacteria and plants do often both compete for the ammonium in an aquarium, don't they?.....robust filter colonies will tend to force the plants to perhaps switch over to burning some of their energy converting nitrates back to ammonium inside the plant, right? And that would come at the expense of some plant growth I would think. This is without bringing fertilization into the picture I guess...

It is the other way round, WD. Plants will assimilate the ammonia at the expense of the filter colony. This is one reason why I never bother to culture a colony that can process 5ppm ammonia in 24 hours. Once the healthy plant mass in my tanks would be introduced, that bacteria colony, although still very important to a planted tank, will reduce in number.

Ferts are added when light dictates.

Dave, your comment about the sodium bicarb is interesting. There are supposed to be a couple of positive reasons for using baking soda to raise the pH and KH during a fishless cycle.

Adding sodium bicarb doesn`t raise the KH. KH is the measurement of calcium and magnesium as carbs and bicarbs, so sodium bicarb can`t be increasing the KH.

Hobby kits measure total alkilinity, which makes them virtually useless for measuring KH against pH to give a CO2 level (hence the drop checker using 4dKH and bromo blue). There are several things in the water affecting the alkalinity, especially in a planted tank where ferts are added.

I realize I'm unlikely to get you interested in thinking about a tech aspect of fishless, which you don't do!

I often wonder why people don`t fishless cycle with their tanks in a 100% blackout during this period. Perhaps people that realise the relationship

adding light + adding ammonia = algae

do actually fishless cycle their tanks with them covered in blankets. Take light out of the equation and you take out the algae too.

Whilst fishless cycling is an interesting subject, you will never get me relying test kits, when I have fish, plants and algae to tell me what is going on, WD. :D

Dave.
 
Well, lads, your posts make very interesting reading....and makes me feel very 'unclever' ha,ha!! :lol:

This fishless cycling sure is a 'technical' occupation, thats for sure!!! :D

I'm sure when its all done and dusted I'll be more the wiser, but at the moment, I'm scratching my head.

This mornings results were (after adding ammonia 24hrs ago)

Ammonia: 1ppm....eh?
Nitrtrite: Unreadable...very purple.
Nitrate:20ppm
pH: 6.6

Can't understand why my filter has not processed all the Ammonia this time...so it seems, I'm going backwards! -_-
 
No Laz, don't think of it as "going backwards," just think that you are drawing a graph chart that goes over all the days of one or two months and as it goes along it has sharp little zig-zags in it if you look at it on a day to day basis. You can't let yourself worry about it too much on any given day, you just have to chart it and keep monitoring all the important things like adding ammonia at your 24 hour mark if you reached zero in the last 24 hours and keeping the temp up properly and watching that the pH isn't going to crash and just charting your stat results, that's all.

It is the other way round, WD. Plants will assimilate the ammonia at the expense of the filter colony. This is one reason why I never bother to culture a colony that can process 5ppm ammonia in 24 hours. Once the healthy plant mass in my tanks would be introduced, that bacteria colony, although still very important to a planted tank, will reduce in number.

ha, yes, I know that dave. What was actually driving me to mention that bit was that I'd been reading a section of Walstad's book the night before and she was talking about an improvement she'd got with plants that like to take up ammonium, by reducing her volume of biofiltration. I just was hesitating mentioning her name as I was remembering that I'd kick off you going ballistic at the mention of her name :lol: :lol: (or was it AC, I couldn't really remember which of you I remembered reading that had some pretty strong disagreement with her stuff??) :)

~~waterdrop~~
 
Thanks!

Well this evenings readings are:

Ammonia:0.25ppm....
Nitrites: Unreadable.
Nitrates: Didn't bother as its too hard to read at night time.
pH:6.8 (Its dropping very fast again as I only added bicarb this morning)

So I added more bicarb, but didn't add any more ammonia liquid....as I'm not at zero.
 
I decided to add 5ppm Ammonia later last night at around 9pm....

This mornings results are:
Ammonia: 2ppm
Nitrite: Unreadable.
Nitrate: 40ppm
pH: 7.6-7.8

I've decided I'm going to do a water change this morning to bring down those Nitrates again....

Actually, I think this is what I'll do from here on out now when I see them hitting 40ppm....

Also, It will help clean my tank up too and make it more prepared for when it does cycle.

I haven't used my KH or GH test kit yet...I'm not sure how knowing these stats will help me at this time during cycling? Can someone explain?
 
Yes, I can explain(warning, gets a bit techy :lol: ). Since you are using baking soda to buffer and slow your pH drop some, it'll be easy to get the hang of why the KH test is helpful.

First, as I believe Dave mentioned, baking soda is adding bicarbs, not Ca carbonates, so there's a difference: Assuming you have some reasonable amount of GH to your tap water (which you can now measure with the GH part of your kit) its still going to be a good thing when you water change, in that it will bring in some Ca and the chemolithoautotrophs (the litho part of the name literally means "eaters of rock" and the Ca is part of that rock they eat!) use that for building structures inside their cells, for use in their cell walls controlling movement of things across the membrane and also its a substance that gets into the biofilm structures built by the bacteria I believe and can help them with their niche in competing with other bacteria etc. So measure your tap GH.

The baking soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) though is "buffering" your soft water. The bicarb part (the HCO3-minus) can bond with the H+ ions in there which are what's measured by a pH kit. As the fishless cycling process puts more and more acids out there, there's more and more H+ and pH heads downward. But it doesn't do it in a linear fashion. Instead, depending on the amount of buffering in your water (which the KH can tell you something about) your H+ ions will be balanced for a period of time until the buffer runs out and then pH will take its more rapid turn downward.

When you only measure pH, you are blind to knowing when this sharper drop is going to happen. When you measure KH (KH is a measure of carbonate hardness or "temporary" hardness, but we can explain that some other time) then you can "see it coming."

In my opinion, the breakpoint to focus on is at about a KH of 4 or so. When you are at 4 and above, then you know you've probably got some days of "buffer" (pun intended) whereas as you pass downward through KH of 3, then 2 and lower, you know the chance for a pH crash is very close, depending on how hard the buildup of nitrites and nitrates is pushing in the acid direction.

Doing the KH test can be a little weird if you're new to it. You fill the tank water to the right level in the test tube. Then you want get ready, near a good light and be ready to watch before starting. Now I'm speaking from the TetraTest KH kit and I believe the API KH one and most others work the same way, but you want to watch that first drop carefully and if it goes yellow on you then you've got ZERO KH, otherwise if its a blue tint then you count "ONE" and go to the next drop. If its a blue tint you count "TWO" and keep going. The drop you're on when it turns yellow is your KH number (in German degrees of KH which is the scale we like to share when talking here rather than the actual bigger ppm number.) Please check your instructions to confirm this as I'm just doing it from memory.

So KH is this wonderful, simple little test, very easy and quick, that works in conjunction with your pH test to give you a much better feel for how your buffering is doing and when to take action prior to a pH crash. Because its easy, you can do it at lots of different points, as a beginner to it, to get a feel for what the adding of baking soda is doing to your bacterial growing water and to watch its buffering effect fade.

Don't forget that the whole reason you're bothering to monitor and alter pH in a fishless cycling tank is because the beneficial bacteria grow fastest at pH 8.0 through 8.4 and in fact their rate of growth varies quite a bit if plotted along a graph of different pH environments. In fishless cycling you are both trying to move your water more towards that optimal growth pH range and also keep it away from the 6.2 stall or 6.0 stop point and of course out of the 5.5 and 9.0 extremes.

Sorry, I kind of "got into it" there, but you can ask questions if you want and I'll try to check back.

~~waterdrop~~
 
Yes, and the reason I didn't reply straight away was because it took me two days to read & digest that!!! ha,ha!!! :hey:

But seriously...that all sounds very interesting. Ok then....I will start using my test kits today and see where I am.

Today I got some good results...well, I call them good, because it appears I am making progress at last!!

I add 5ppm of Ammonia yesterday morning and this morning after 24hrs:
Ammonia: 0pmm
Nitrite: 0.50pmm (Yes!!! :yahoo:)
Nitrate:20ppm
pH 7.6-7.8

So, I did something that I probably should have done ages ago...I took my spare quarantine filter that I have running in my smaller tank, and put it into the bigger tank....

Maybe this will give it the final boost it needs.
 
Yes, very good sign of progress - probably showing the end of the nitrite spike period. Next up will be getting ammonia to drop within 12 hours and next rough spot after that is usually when nitrite usually works its way -almost- down to 12 hours but then sticks there taking a little longer than 12 hours and driving you crazy.

(you mean you had an available extra filter with some mature media in it that you were feeding ammonia and it was not keeping fish and you didn't..... um, ok I'll shut up)

~~waterdrop~~
 
ha, yes, I know that dave. What was actually driving me to mention that bit was that I'd been reading a section of Walstad's book the night before and she was talking about an improvement she'd got with plants that like to take up ammonium, by reducing her volume of biofiltration. I just was hesitating mentioning her name as I was remembering that I'd kick off you going ballistic at the mention of her name :lol: :lol: (or was it AC, I couldn't really remember which of you I remembered reading that had some pretty strong disagreement with her stuff??) :)

~~waterdrop~~

I know of people that dose urea in to their tanks, but it seems a worthless exercise to me, plus a little dodgy with fish around.

I am certainly not qualified to pull Diana`s ideas to bits, and have read her book cover to cover. She should issue it without the allelopathy section, IMO. :lol: She is also a member of a forum on which I moderate, but she never posts. :sad:

The API KH test kit measures total alkalinity, not KH.

It is also worth pointing out, Lazerus, that once your cycle is complete, there will be no real need to buffer your water. I get by fine with a KH around 1dKH (measured at work).

Dave.
 

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