Woot, Got Nitrite Spike Finally Need Help Fishless Cycle

[Jeff Lange]

Finally day 21 seem to have got a nitrite spike between 3-5 ppm. Hard to tell exactly with (API) test kit but its purple.
I added ammonia yesterday to get back up to around 4 ppm now today ammonia was back down to approx 0.50 - 1.0 ppm.
I used the Add ammonia and w8 method but have been adding ammonia a few times to get back to 4ppm durring the past 21 days.
Should I be adding ammonia to 4ppm or 2 ppm daily now ?
Any idea's how long until the nitrites start to get to 0 again while adding the ammonia ?
Nitrate is apporx between 40-80 ppm. again hard to tell exactly dang (API) test kit.
I will more than likely need to do a 75-90 percent water change to get nitrate down after the cycle is finished and nitrite and ammonia are 0 aftere 10-12 hours.
When I do my water change is it ok to use PRIME water conditioner for my tap water or is there a better brand? Bottle says it removes Chlorine, Chloramine, Ammonia. I don't want to kill my cycle and bacteria.
Thanks everyone for the help and answers.

 

[martyn413]

Hi there,

I would make the ammonia upto 4ppm as the bactiera you have created will starve to death.

I think you should now be testing daily for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. You should also test the ph because the cycle can stall if the ph changes.

Martyn

 

[backtotropical]

Hi Jeff,

Sounds like your cycle is coming along fine. I would suggest that you should continue to add ammonia to 4ppm whenever ammonia gets down to 0 (whether that is every day or every week), although don't add ammonia more than once per day.

Once you have established that 4ppm of ammonia is being processed in 12 hours or less, do a big (90%) water change to lower nitrite to a measurable level, and cut back ammonia to 2ppm.

After that you are waiting for nitrite to drop to 0. When it does, crank ammonia back up to 4ppm and wait for the golden moment when you add ammonia and test 12hrs later, ammonia 0, nitrite 0. That means you are cycled. It should only take a few days after cranking ammonia back up to 4ppm.

When you get to this momentous occasion, do another large (95%) water change, and go get your fish.

Cutting back to 2ppm certainly won't starve your bacteria to death, but as Martyn says, test pH regularly to ensure it hasn't crashed down to below 6.0.

With regard to prime water conditioner, yes its fine. Its actually one of the best ones on the market. It won't affect your cycle because it doesn't actually remove ammonia as such. I believe it turns ammonia to ammonium which can easily still be used by your filter bacteria.

Good luck and keep asking if you are unsure.

Cheers

BTT

 

[waterdrop]

Hi Jeff,

Just wanted to say that I totally agree with BTT and find each of those paragraphs very clear.

Glad you hear your cycle is progressing well,
~~waterdrop~~

[Bacteria are slow to grow and slow to die. Best info I've heard is that each 24 hours without food (ammonia) (but with oxygen via filter water flow) will cause only 1-5% die-off, a small amount. A stopped filter with no water/oxygen flow but with water still in filter is a different story, with hours being important rather than days. Drying out bacteria pretty much kills them. Even very small amounts ammonia at pretty long intervals will keep a very viable bacteria population, because they bounce back so quickly. ...maybe BTT will care to enhance that info ]

 

[Jeff Lange]

Hi Jeff,

Sounds like your cycle is coming along fine. I would suggest that you should continue to add ammonia to 4ppm whenever ammonia gets down to 0 (whether that is every day or every week), although don't add ammonia more than once per day.

Once you have established that 4ppm of ammonia is being processed in 12 hours or less, do a big (90%) water change to lower nitrite to a measurable level, and cut back ammonia to 2ppm.

After that you are waiting for nitrite to drop to 0. When it does, crank ammonia back up to 4ppm and wait for the golden moment when you add ammonia and test 12hrs later, ammonia 0, nitrite 0. That means you are cycled. It should only take a few days after cranking ammonia back up to 4ppm.

When you get to this momentous occasion, do another large (95%) water change, and go get your fish.

Cutting back to 2ppm certainly won't starve your bacteria to death, but as Martyn says, test pH regularly to ensure it hasn't crashed down to below 6.0.

With regard to prime water conditioner, yes its fine. Its actually one of the best ones on the market. It won't affect your cycle because it doesn't actually remove ammonia as such. I believe it turns ammonia to ammonium which can easily still be used by your filter bacteria.

Good luck and keep asking if you are unsure.

Cheers

BTT

Thanks for the info. Will be checking nitrite, nitrate, ammonia, and ph daily now.

Just so I understand your advice.
After my cycle is processing 4ppm ammonia in 10-12 hours I should do a 90 percent water change to lower nitrite and nitrate. Then after the water change add 2 ppm of ammonia back in tank ( is this immediatly after water change? )

While I am waiting for Nitrite to drop to 0 am I still feeding 2 ppm ammonia daily ?

Then after nitrite hits 0 and ammonia hits 0 again, I then add the 4 ppm ammonia back in ?
Will my ammonia and nitrite read 0 after 12 hours or so ? , If not am I still adding and maintaining 4 ppm of ammonia daily? This is the part that is a bit confusing as I did the ( Add ammonia and w8 cycle ) not the (Ammonia of 4ppm daily cycle )


Do I add Prime conditioner every time I do my water change ?

 

[waterdrop]

"Just so I understand your advice.
After my cycle is processing 4ppm ammonia in 10-12 hours I should do a 90 percent water change to lower nitrite and nitrate. Then after the water change add 2 ppm of ammonia back in tank ( is this immediatly after water change? ) "

> Yes, you just add ammonia immediately after the water change to bring it back up to 2ppm

"While I am waiting for Nitrite to drop to 0 am I still feeding 2 ppm ammonia daily ?"

> Yes, daily.

"Then after nitrite hits 0 and ammonia hits 0 again, I then add the 4 ppm ammonia back in ?"

> No, you -ease- it back up from 2ppm to 4ppm over several days, to increase the populations.

"Will my ammonia and nitrite read 0 after 12 hours or so ? , If not am I still adding and maintaining 4 ppm of ammonia daily? This is the part that is a bit confusing as I did the ( Add ammonia and w8 cycle ) not the (Ammonia of 4ppm daily cycle )"
> Yes, whenever you don't have fish, you should be adding some amount (you'll notice we're only varying between 2ppm and 4ppm here) once a day to feed and maintain the bacterial populations, that certainly doesn't change just because you've reached a goal and are nearing the fish introduction point. Remember, the ammonia is just simulating the fish waste! (2ppm of ammonia simulates a smaller population of fish, 4ppm simulates the largest population of fish your tank is likely to see.)

"Do I add Prime conditioner every time I do my water change ?"
> Absolutely! Think about the purpose of chlorine/chloramine. Its in the tap water to kill bacteria. The larger the percent water change, the greater the chance that un-conditioned (conditioned = dechlored/dechloraminated) tap water will kill off some of your bacterial population in the filter, causing a major setback to your fishless cycling process. Even if Prime turns some of the pure ammonia into ammonium, the bacteria can eat the ammonium too, no difference to them.

Hopefully BTT & other experts will agree with these answers!
~~waterdrop~~

 

[Jeff Lange]

"Just so I understand your advice.
After my cycle is processing 4ppm ammonia in 10-12 hours I should do a 90 percent water change to lower nitrite and nitrate. Then after the water change add 2 ppm of ammonia back in tank ( is this immediatly after water change? ) "

> Yes, you just add ammonia immediately after the water change to bring it back up to 2ppm

"While I am waiting for Nitrite to drop to 0 am I still feeding 2 ppm ammonia daily ?"

> Yes, daily.

"Then after nitrite hits 0 and ammonia hits 0 again, I then add the 4 ppm ammonia back in ?"

> No, you -ease- it back up from 2ppm to 4ppm over several days, to increase the populations.

"Will my ammonia and nitrite read 0 after 12 hours or so ? , If not am I still adding and maintaining 4 ppm of ammonia daily? This is the part that is a bit confusing as I did the ( Add ammonia and w8 cycle ) not the (Ammonia of 4ppm daily cycle )"
> Yes, whenever you don't have fish, you should be adding some amount (you'll notice we're only varying between 2ppm and 4ppm here) once a day to feed and maintain the bacterial populations, that certainly doesn't change just because you've reached a goal and are nearing the fish introduction point. Remember, the ammonia is just simulating the fish waste! (2ppm of ammonia simulates a smaller population of fish, 4ppm simulates the largest population of fish your tank is likely to see.)

"Do I add Prime conditioner every time I do my water change ?"
> Absolutely! Think about the purpose of chlorine/chloramine. Its in the tap water to kill bacteria. The larger the percent water change, the greater the chance that un-conditioned (conditioned = dechlored/dechloraminated) tap water will kill off some of your bacterial population in the filter, causing a major setback to your fishless cycling process. Even if Prime turns some of the pure ammonia into ammonium, the bacteria can eat the ammonium too, no difference to them.

Hopefully BTT & other experts will agree with these answers!
~~waterdrop~~

Yea, I was just wondering because the thread on this forum gave 2 methods to the fishless cycle. The add and wait and the add daily. I wanted to check as the discussion for the add and wait did not mention a water change until the end of the process after nitrites and ammonia were at 0 right before you added your fish. That is where my confusion is.

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, the large water changes -during- the fishless cycling process that you hear recommended by TFF members now and then are definately "extras" - they are usually recommended for a reason (like pH dropping down to 6.0 ... or tons of nitrites and nitrates building up in a long cycle) but it seems they are generally "sanctioned" by many experienced members.

In general it seems you can often solve various water problems with a water change, then recharge the ammonia back up to 2ppm or 4ppm or whatever you are aiming for at a particular stage and the bacteria are fine with it and it may "kickstart" them to seemingly get past a slow period. Again, there are pros & cons to it (eg. you are "interrupting" the bacterial feeding, you are potentially "shocking" them somewhat with pH and/or temperature changes etc.) so its good to have reasons to do it or else leave well-enough alone.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Jeff Lange]

Ok, Seem to be processing 4 ppm ammonia now in 10 hours or so. Nitrite still @ 5 ppm and Nitrate between 40-80 ppm. PH has come down a little to approx 6.4-6.8.
Maybe tommorrow I will do a large water change and add 2 ppm to tank.

Question: I looked at my Marineland 350 canister filter today and noticed alot of fungus type white stuff on the blue Filter Sleeve> ( Using the Carbon ) w/ blue Filter Sleeve. I think I read not to remove or clean the filter materials during the cycle. Do I remove and clean sleave now or w8 ? and if I w8 till cycle is comleted at what point do or should I change all or 1/2 of my Carbon media and clean or rinse my filter sleeve?

Also noticed white fungus type stuff on my log that was added before the cycle? Not sure what that is should I remove it an rinse it with cold water to remove the fungus like stuff?

Thanks for the continued support and help. Hopefully my tank will be cycled soon.

 

[waterdrop]

Unless you are getting seriously reduced flow from your filter, the period of fishless cycling is not the time to clean it. You are trying hard to increase the bacteria and any cleaning will have a setback effect.

White fungus happens. I get it on dead plant material and try to remove it by hand from the tank if I can. I think its harmless and can be cleaned out of course at the end of fishless cycling. We can hear from others on this too.

Marineland 350 - would be good for someone who knows this filter and what options it presents for media use to comment. I'll limit my comments to general ones re carbon (apologies if you already know this..) ....

Carbon (aka Active Carbon, aka Activated Carbon, aka Activated Charcoal, aka charcoal) got a reputation back in the 1950's and 60's or before as an accepted layer in fishkeeping filters. This was the same time period when "aged water" was thought to be wonderful and fishkeepers were encouraged to keep their "aged water" as long as possible and avoid water changes. In hindsight, I think, carbon fit in to that picture because people with bogwood and other things liked that carbon removed the yellow tannins and could remove smells from organic buildups because water was not being changed. This may not be an entirely correct history and certainly doesn't apply to all fishkeepers, but I think there must be some aspects of truth in this picture. Probably small numbers of very knowledgeable fishkeepers knew better. LFSs never changed because big boxes of carbon, just like salt and polyfloss and ammochips and stuff are great repeat sales to keep some cash flow in a volatile business picture, I'll speculate.

Gradually the picture on carbon changed and current practice is very different. Carbon is special because each pebble contains passageways providing a huge surface area on which chemical adsorption can take place, condensing and thus "removing" these chemicals from the water. Carbon is one of the only cheap ways to do this and is used extensively in many industries for many things. Practical fishkeeping uses for carbon abound. Most commonly it is used to remove chemical medications from the tank after the medication period. It is still used to remove yellow tannins from various types of underwater wood. It is still used to remove smells from various problems. It no doubt has many more uses than I know about!

But the practical problems with carbon abound also: First and formost, it only lasts about 3 days. Some will say 5 but I really think that is just because they are waiting for the weekend so to speak. Secondly, after those 3 days are over, it is wasting valuable space in your filter as it is just sitting there waiting for disposal. Additionally, there has been some concern in the past that after the 3 days it begins to leach the very chemicals it has removed back out - however this has been largely disproven and is no longer considered a worry.

Thus, the accepted practice (anyone reading this please temper it with other TFF information) as I see it is limited to the special uses outlined above, namely, med removal, unwanted color removal and odor reduction. Since removal in 3 days makes sense, an effective way to use carbon is in a small intermal filter fully filled with carbon (or a cannister tray or a HOB of course, really no difference other than ease of removal.)

So, I view carbon as still having a lot of good special uses and valuable on the fishkeepers shelf, but once a newcomer understands it better the picture certainly changes from that presented in the new kits on the LFS shelf! The LFS & filter manufacturers leverage the money even more by enclosing carbon is special proprietary pouches that only fit a single particular model of filter I believe.

(darn!, sorry mate, always do this when I'm drinking my morning coffee.. if you already know that then maybe some other newbie will have a good read, sigh..)

OK, back to you Jeff! That's fantastic that ammonia is getting down to zero in 10 hours - wish mine were back to there by now! you are clearly in the "Nitrite Spike" stage and the large water change (which you've probably already done by the time you read this) sounds like a good idea at this point if it gets your pH back up higher (I assume your tap pH is higher than 6.4?) and I think there is speculation that getting high nitrates out of there can be good wrt pH drop and/or fishless process. Anyway, sounds like you are doing great.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Jeff Lange]

Well here it is so far, I am a little confused.
My PH was falling to around 6.4 or so so I decided to do a 90 Percent water change as advised above to get the PH back up. I have been processing 4 ppm ammonia for like 4 days now in 10 hours or so.

Reading this morning before water change.

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 2.0
Nitrate 10 tested 2 times day before was 20
PH 6.4 approx

After 90% water change today to boost PH back up and 2 hours after adding ammonia 65 Gallon Tank

Ammonia ( 6 tbs ) 2 ppm
Nitrite 2 ppm
Nitrate 20
PH- 7.4 to 7.6

PH went up but in 2 hours so did the Nitrate. Nitrite stayed about the same. I was under the impression that by doing such a large water change I would have reduced the Nitrite and Nitrate. But Nitrite is about the same and Nitrate is higher than before water change ?? Am I doing something wrong ?
I am hoping I will be processing the 2 ppm ammonia still in 8-10 hours and if so
Should I continue to only add 2 ppm of ammonia daily until Nitrite is ) ? I think that was what was sugested.
Hopefully I am close to end of cycle

 

[waterdrop]

My feeling is that a large water change during fishless cycling is the right thing to do when your pH is dropping and approaching 6.0 (where everyone seems to agree that fishless cycling process stalls out.) So I feel you've done the right thing.

Now, I also have the feeling, not very scientific.., that when your perform a large water change during fishless cycling, you are creating a disturbance and there is something of a reaction in the process and in the readings you get. My unscientific way of describing it to myself is that the bacteria don't particularly like have the steady-state changed on them, even if its to give them a better pH! I think of them as grumbly, fussy little creatures, lol. What I always hope is that a couple days afterward, they perk up and like the new pH and things bounce back better than before the water change.

So I think the important thing here is that you've successfully raised pH. Now, about the NO2/NO3: Existing tank water stayed in the filter during the water change, right? I usually feel that there may be undecomposed debris (plant debris maybe?, dead bacteria themselves) and nitrates in that water in the filter. When the bacteria get rejuvinated by the fresh water with O2 and high pH, maybe they have a burst of processing that debris and quickly produce more nitrites and nitrates - after all, we know the processes aren't linear, the processing is more "bursty" in timing. This is just speculation but in any case, I wouldn't worry about the nitrites and nitrates, at least not yet.

I think what's frustrating, and you and I and lioness have all seen this, is that right when you think you see the end of the tunnel, these pH crashes occur and then you water change and then it takes a bit to recover from that and then it seems to take a bit more for the ammonia processors to become quick again etc. As MW said over in my Oliver thread, eventually its got to cycle, there's just nowhere else for it to go if you keep feeding it ammonia -- I draw inspiration from that.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Jeff Lange]

My feeling is that a large water change during fishless cycling is the right thing to do when your pH is dropping and approaching 6.0 (where everyone seems to agree that fishless cycling process stalls out.) So I feel you've done the right thing.

Now, I also have the feeling, not very scientific.., that when your perform a large water change during fishless cycling, you are creating a disturbance and there is something of a reaction in the process and in the readings you get. My unscientific way of describing it to myself is that the bacteria don't particularly like have the steady-state changed on them, even if its to give them a better pH! I think of them as grumbly, fussy little creatures, lol. What I always hope is that a couple days afterward, they perk up and like the new pH and things bounce back better than before the water change.

So I think the important thing here is that you've successfully raised pH. Now, about the NO2/NO3: Existing tank water stayed in the filter during the water change, right? I usually feel that there may be undecomposed debris (plant debris maybe?, dead bacteria themselves) and nitrates in that water in the filter. When the bacteria get rejuvinated by the fresh water with O2 and high pH, maybe they have a burst of processing that debris and quickly produce more nitrites and nitrates - after all, we know the processes aren't linear, the processing is more "bursty" in timing. This is just speculation but in any case, I wouldn't worry about the nitrites and nitrates, at least not yet.

I think what's frustrating, and you and I and lioness have all seen this, is that right when you think you see the end of the tunnel, these pH crashes occur and then you water change and then it takes a bit to recover from that and then it seems to take a bit more for the ammonia processors to become quick again etc. As MW said over in my Oliver thread, eventually its got to cycle, there's just nowhere else for it to go if you keep feeding it ammonia -- I draw inspiration from that.

~~waterdrop~~

Yea, I did not disturb the canister filter. Left the water in there just shut off the filter, heater etc before I did the water change so maybe that is it. I will keep posting my results as they occur and hopefully there is light at the end of the tunnel. Can't w8 to get my fish from my 28 gallon into this new tank. Have 3 med large angels, dam things beg too much for food. 2 albino corey cats. 2 clown loachs, and 2 von rio's. Been worried about the von rios as the angels always seem to eat all the food like pharana.
Do you think I can add them all at the same time once cycled due to the fishless cycle or should I add over week or 2?

 

[waterdrop]

If the filter is dropping 4ppm to zero by the end then that is supposed to handle a full load of fish. What do others think?

 

[backtotropical]

Can't w8 to get my fish from my 28 gallon into this new tank. Have 3 med large angels, dam things beg too much for food. 2 albino corey cats. 2 clown loachs, and 2 von rio's.

Sorry Jeff, i don't think you are going to like this, but here goes............

Does your 28 gallon have an established filter on it already, which is happily cpoing with the waste produced by the fish?

Could you fit the filter media from the 28 gallon filter into the filter for the new set-up? or alternatively take the filter off the 28 gallon tank and run it on the new tank temporarily?

Do you plan to simply take all the fish from the 28 to the new tank?

If you can answer yes to all three questions, you didn't need to fishless cycle at all.

I await your reply before i launch into explaining why.

P.S. Sorry, i didn't realise you had another tank, or i would have said before.

Cheers

BTT