Wood And Water Softening

[FishCat_16]

I have a question about the softening effects of wood added to a tank.
 
My water, out of the tap has a GH and KH of 11dGH and pH of 8.2.  My tank now has a few pieces of wood, sand, and live plants.
 
My GH is now 10, KH 9, and pH 7.5.
 
My question is- how long does the softening effects of the wood last?  Is it something that will will be brought back in line with the parameters straight from the tap as I do water changes?  If the effects are temporary, should I look to do several water changes until the harness and pH come back to what the tap water is?  Is this a significant enough fluctuation during water changes that fish would be affected?  The parameters are still within acceptable range for the fish I wish to stock.

 

[SherLar]

   What type of wood are you using? If aquarium driftwood, I have it in one of my tanks, and it hasn't made any marked difference in either PH or hardness for quite some time. I have well water, so it's quite hard (GH 260) and quite base (PH 8.2) straight from the tap. I mostly have cichlids and other hard water fish, but I keep the PH in my community tank down to 7.4 by using well rinsed peat in a media bag inside one of the filters.
   During water changes, the PH raises as it must, but is usually back to 7.4 within a couple days. Some of my community fish have been in the tank for a couple years, and don't seem to mind the changes in PH.
   What fish do you stock? Some species are more sensitive to water fluctuations than others. Also, farm or tank bred fish of any species are more tolerant of wider water parameters than are wild caught fish.

 

[FishCat_16]

No fish just yet.  It's a new tank and I'm still working through the cycling.  I'm planning ellioti cichlids and probably one of the rainbowfish.  As far as I have found, all of the fish I have been looking at are tank bred.
 
The wood is spider wood for use in an aquarium.  I figured that the parameters would change some with the water changes.  I'll have to be sure I check all of the above after the pre-stocking WC and see how they look once the tap water is added in.  I'm guessing it won't be a huge fluctuation after water changes since they will only be partial.

 

[StevenF]

 
 
My question is- how long does the softening effects of the wood last?

You are assuming that would soaked up the minerals in thewater. Where would it put them and what is the mechanism?  if it did, people would be using it to soften their hard water. I have seen nothing to indicate it  will soak up minerals.  
 
That said there is one thing in your aquarium that will soak up minerials in the water.  Your plants.  Did you get a plant growth surge  lately?  A plants growth rate will be partially regulated by the availability of minerals int he water.  If just one is in short supply your plant will growth will slow and possibly stop.  Now if your wood delivered the one nutrient your plants were low on they would start growing again and in the process would remove minerals from your water.  Plants need a lot of potassium and phosphorous.  Potassium can increase PH while phosphorous can decrease it.  Phosphorous compounds are also sometimes added to water to prevent pipe corrosion.    Plants also need calcium and magnesium iron and other minerals  which is also in tap water.  if your plants had a growth surge you could see the changes you observed.

 

[SherLar]

   Most cichlids prefer harder water and higher PH, so if you want cichlids, you probably won't need to lower your Ph or soften your water. Most rainbows, on the other hand, seem to prefer softer water and a more acidic PH. They may not be a good mix in your tank. But, of course, there are exceptions to every rule.

 

[FishCat_16]

I don't want to soften it.  It's right about where I want it.  My concern is not with what my levels are as much as the potential for fluctuations with water changes.

 

[SherLar]

   I suppose it would depend on the size of your water changes. If you did frequent, but small changes, say 10-15% twice weekly, I think it would be ok.

 

[Byron]

I would suggest testing the GH and KH of tap water a few times, and/or confirming your numbers with the water authority (should find this data on their website, or ask them directly).
 
With a KH of 9 or 10 dKH, it is highly unlikely the pH will fall from 8.2 to 7.5 regardless of wood, plants or fish.  The KH works to buffer pH, preventing fluctuations.  It is only when the buffering capacity of the KH is exhausted that the pH will then begin to fall.
 
Byron.

 

[FishCat_16]

I would suggest testing the GH and KH of tap water a few times, and/or confirming your numbers with the water authority (should find this data on their website, or ask them directly).
 
With a KH of 9 or 10 dKH, it is highly unlikely the pH will fall from 8.2 to 7.5 regardless of wood, plants or fish.  The KH works to buffer pH, preventing fluctuations.  It is only when the buffering capacity of the KH is exhausted that the pH will then begin to fall.
 
Byron.

Thanks Byron.  I have a well so no water authority to contact.  I've tested it a number of times because I'm crazy like that.  The first time I tested the pH I hadn't let it set out overnight.  That first test was 7.6.  After it sat over night it was 8.2, I tested it twice after letting it sit out, uncovered and got the same result. 
 
After the installation of half of the plants and half of the wood, I tested the tank water and got KH 11, GH 11, and pH 7.5.  The third set of tests had the same KH and GH and I checked the pH and got 7.6 and using the high range test 7.4.
 
I have had another piece of wood in the tank for the last four days or so but I just added the second half of my plants last night.  Early this evening I checked the KH, GH, and pH and got 9 (though I have a hard time distinguishing the color so it could have been 10 ), 10, and pH 7.5.
 
The tank has only been running for six days for half of the plants and one day for all of the plants.  Much of what I have read on various other sites have indicated that wood could potentially lower the pH by about .5... I assume by the release of tannic acid?  The KH being the buffering agent.  But it doesn't really seem that a .5 lowering of pH would use up that much calcium in so short of a time...
 
I'll test everything again when I do my ammonia test tomorrow afternoon.

 

[Jeremy180]

 

I would suggest testing the GH and KH of tap water a few times, and/or confirming your numbers with the water authority (should find this data on their website, or ask them directly).
 
With a KH of 9 or 10 dKH, it is highly unlikely the pH will fall from 8.2 to 7.5 regardless of wood, plants or fish.  The KH works to buffer pH, preventing fluctuations.  It is only when the buffering capacity of the KH is exhausted that the pH will then begin to fall.
 
Byron.

Thanks Byron.  I have a well so no water authority to contact.  I've tested it a number of times because I'm crazy like that.  The first time I tested the pH I hadn't let it set out overnight.  That first test was 7.6.  After it sat over night it was 8.2, I tested it twice after letting it sit out, uncovered and got the same result. 
 
After the installation of half of the plants and half of the wood, I tested the tank water and got KH 11, GH 11, and pH 7.5.  The third set of tests had the same KH and GH and I checked the pH and got 7.6 and using the high range test 7.4.
 
I have had another piece of wood in the tank for the last four days or so but I just added the second half of my plants last night.  Early this evening I checked the KH, GH, and pH and got 9 (though I have a hard time distinguishing the color so it could have been 10 ), 10, and pH 7.5.
 
The tank has only been running for six days for half of the plants and one day for all of the plants.  Much of what I have read on various other sites have indicated that wood could potentially lower the pH by about .5... I assume by the release of tannic acid?  The KH being the buffering agent.  But it doesn't really seem that a .5 lowering of pH would use up that much calcium in so short of a time...
 
I'll test everything again when I do my ammonia test tomorrow afternoon.
 

Just to be sure, you will be doing a fishless cycle with ammonia, correct?

 

[FishCat_16]

No fish just yet.  It's a new tank and I'm still working through the cycling.  I'm planning ellioti cichlids and probably one of the rainbowfish.  As far as I have found, all of the fish I have been looking at are tank bred.
 
The wood is spider wood for use in an aquarium.  I figured that the parameters would change some with the water changes.  I'll have to be sure I check all of the above after the pre-stocking WC and see how they look once the tap water is added in.  I'm guessing it won't be a huge fluctuation after water changes since they will only be partial.

 

[Akasha72]

do you have any of the sand left over? I've long since suspected that some of the sands we use in our tanks have an effect on pH, kh and gH. I've been shouted down about this several times but I've not changed my view on it.
 
I actually run an experiment with three clean glasses of water. One I kept empty, the other I added aquarium gravel and the third I added aquarium sand. The plain glass pH didn't move much over a period of 5 days. The glass with the gravel fell over night from 7.6 to 7.2 and stayed there but the glass with the sand fell from 7.6 to 6,5 and stayed there. This is what my tank runs at. 
 
If you have some sand left over you could try the same experiment and see what happens. It's better to know now before fish are added after-all  

 

[FishCat_16]

do you have any of the sand left over? I've long since suspected that some of the sands we use in our tanks have an effect on pH, kh and gH. I've been shouted down about this several times but I've not changed my view on it.
 
I actually run an experiment with three clean glasses of water. One I kept empty, the other I added aquarium gravel and the third I added aquarium sand. The plain glass pH didn't move much over a period of 5 days. The glass with the gravel fell over night from 7.6 to 7.2 and stayed there but the glass with the sand fell from 7.6 to 6,5 and stayed there. This is what my tank runs at. 
 
If you have some sand left over you could try the same experiment and see what happens. It's better to know now before fish are added after-all

I like this thought, and I recall you mentioning the sand effect too.  And I didn't test the water after just the sand was added.  I don't have any left over but I don't have fish yet so I could probably scoop some out and let it sit in a glass.  I have all the time in the world since I think I misjudged my planting level when I dosed the ammonia yesterday so I'll have probably 48 hours according to one of TwoTankAmin's cycling posts before I can get an idea of what's going on.  I dosed to 2ppm for moderate and I suspect this early in the planting I probably should have gone with 1ppm for light.  I suppose I'll have a better idea this afternoon.  Hopefully I'll be down to at least 1ppm.
 
I'm going to check the KH again in better light, we've got glorious frigid blue skies with plenty of natural light today... I really do have a hard time with some of the colors.  I just don't want to end up in some sort of pH, KH pergatory where it's not quite hard but not quite soft.  At least the fishes all seem to be tolerant of a range. 
 
If I need to keep some sand or wood on hand to add to a bucket to make sure I replace with water of close to the same parameters, then that is what I will do.  But if the .5 pH and 1-ish KH change won't be a big deal during a water change then I won't bother if all of the "stuff" in the tank will eventually balance it out again.  Dilution being the solution to pollution I suspect will hold true here as well.
 
Now that I'm adding the ammonia, I'm keeping a log of that, and I've added KH, GH, and pH as well so I'll be able to see what's happening there and see where I balance out.

 

[Akasha72]

scoop a handful out and rinse it well in running water and then add it to a clean glass vessel (jam jar or something like) and see what happens over a few days to the pH, gH and kH. I wouldn't be surprised to see a drop in all 3 but we shall see

 

[FishCat_16]

scoop a handful out and rinse it well in running water and then add it to a clean glass vessel (jam jar or something like) and see what happens over a few days to the pH, gH and kH. I wouldn't be surprised to see a drop in all 3 but we shall see

 
I'm going to outgas a jar of water overnight.  Last time the pH went from 7.5 or 7.6 up to 8.2 after I did that.  Tomorrow I'll add the sand.  So we shall see!