Wild Guppy update...

[Mamaschild]

Most of the Feeder Gupps in the stores are wild guppies from Trinidad or Mexico, and yes, they look like that naturally. They might be Wild/fancy crosses, or Endler crosses, but they are NOT Endlers. And this is what a male Endler Guppy Cross looks like....not like the ones you pictured.

Sorry if that sounded harsh, but I keep seeing people buy "feeder" gupps, then get all excited because some one says it "Looks" like an Endler. Honestly, they don't look like Endlers. My Cross looks like an Endler.

Oh, and before anyone flames me for having a cross, his mom is a solid yellow/gold Guppy female that the LFS had tossed in a tank with male Endlers. In otherwords, I didn't do it, they did My Endlers are all pure and in their own tank

 

[BobK]

I don't think you can say with 100% certainty a fish is 100% guppy or 100% endler based soley on appearance. I'd expect to find as much variability in endlers as in guppies so just because your photo of an endler isn't exactly like the photo in question doesn't mean they both aren't endlers. Without knowing exactly where the fish came from and what types of genetics are involved there really is no way of telling a fish' lineage with 100% accuracy. Besides, endlers look very similar to guppies.

There is a lot of controversy as to whether endlers are even a separate species from guppies. Endlers have such a small habitat in the wild that they are probably just a small population of wild guppies that were geographically isolated from the rest of the population and developed their own distinctiveness due to a limited gene pool. They are probably no more a separate species than Caucasian's and Africans are.

Not trying to get anyone mad, just trying to look at the issue from a different perspective.

 

[sylvia]

I agree with the above but I do believe endler's and guppies are substantialy different and likely different though very very closely related species.

In the wild guppies and endler's did actualy occur together. However, they did not inter-breed by choice which is why I consider them to be seperate species.

I would however settle for just a sub-species

As for the picture of the endler/guppy hybrid - they don't all look like that and they aren't all necessarily first generation either! There is no telling what kind of fish you have without tracing it right back.

About the feeder goldfish/guppies.

I think there's a very simple explanation - guppies can be housed in a small tank and easily bred, with new stock being introduced to expand and keep gene pool healthy, while goldfish require a huge tank and breeding them is quite a bit more difficult. It also would be less likely that people will introduce new fish simply to expand the gene pool to keep the inbred fish from becoming week while with the guppies, short, 2-year, lfietime, there are probably new fish being added all the time. Not to mention how cheap they are. I think the main reason though has to do with care - guppies kept in a small tank without a filter (to be fed soon to larger fish) won't cause as much pollution so won't die of ammonia poisoning as quickly and won't be stunted either as they are so small - as opposed to goldfish.

 

[Mamaschild]

Well, I have searched the web previously and have never seen Endler's that look like the Feeders posted in the beginning of this post

The pic on top here is very good
http/www.mysapientia.com/camera/fish/endler/endlers.html
LOTS of good pics of male Endler's at the bottom of this one
http/members.cox.net/newcomb1/endlers.html
More
http/aquariumhobbyist.com/endlerslivebearer/
and more
http/www.petfish.net/endlers.htm
More info with pics
http/www.geocities.com/Heartland/7130/martic09.htm
just one more pic
http/home.fuse.net/fishfarmer/PEndlers972.jpg

The main tell for Endler's is the black spot on the side of the males. Wild Guppies don't have that defined spot/mark. That's the first marking that shows up in juvenile males, and the way I id'd my little guy as a cross.

I'm not looking for arguements, and I will not join in any. I'm simply tired of people buying feeder gupps, then getting all excited because they are told that the feeders "LOOK LIKE ENDLERS" when they don't. Believe me, Endler's are more expensive and would never be used as feeders knowingly. You MIGHT run into some at a very unknowledgeable LFS, but I doubt that. They are too spectacular a fish to be confused with feeders.

 

[Funki]

I'm simply tired of people buying feeder gupps, then getting all excited because they are told that the feeders "LOOK LIKE ENDLERS" when they don't. Believe me, Endler's are more expensive and would never be used as feeders knowingly. You MIGHT run into some at a very unknowledgeable LFS, but I doubt that. They are too spectacular a fish to be confused with feeders.

I couldn't have said it better! THANK YOU!

 

[guppler]

I am curious. Feeder goldfish apparently don't live long, but feeder guppies do? I learn something new everyday.

I suspect feeder goldfish have the potential to live much longer than feeder guppies. I bought 2 feeder goldfish over 2 years ago and both are healthy and growing. One also turned out to be a commet.
I think generally what makes a feeder fish a feeder fish is that a person decides it probably doesn't have as much potential as the fishes that sell for more money and they would rather sell it as a feeder than feed it and care for it while people buy all the more valuable fish and the plainer ones don't sell as fast. They breed some plain ones on purpose just to sell as feeders, and they just don't try to breed them to be very pretty and all. It wouldn't surprize me if a lot of "feeders" even have the potential to live longer than fancier strains that have been inbred more. Pure bred dogs tend to have more health problems than mutts.
If feeders don't live as long it's because they are treated like feeders. I was told that a crowded tank of feeder goldfish is expected to have health problems because they are so crowded and i supose most people don't bother to cure or take special care of fish that are just going to be somebody's lunch pretty soon.
I was told by a LFS that if I sold my fry to them as juveniles before they showed desirable traits, they would be sold as feeders. The same could happen with hybrids if the people selling them don't aprove of hybrids or don't think they will sell well.
I've considered buying feeder guppies that look interesting to add to the genetic diversity at my house. At some point I think that's pretty much where all new strains come from.

 

[guppler]

I am curious. Feeder goldfish apparently don't live long, but feeder guppies do? I learn something new everyday.

I suspect feeder goldfish have the potential to live much longer than feeder guppies. I bought 2 feeder goldfish over 2 years ago and both are healthy and growing. One also turned out to be a commet.
I think generally what makes a feeder fish a feeder fish is that a person decides it probably doesn't have as much potential as the fishes that sell for more money and they would rather sell it as a feeder than feed it and care for it while people buy all the more valuable fish and the plainer ones don't sell as fast. They breed some plain ones on purpose just to sell as feeders, and they just don't try to breed them to be very pretty and all. It wouldn't surprize me if a lot of "feeders" even have the potential to live longer than fancier strains that have been inbred more. Pure bred dogs tend to have more health problems than mutts.
If feeders don't live as long it's because they are treated like feeders. I was told that a crowded tank of feeder goldfish is expected to have health problems because they are so crowded and i supose most people don't bother to cure or take special care of fish that are just going to be somebody's lunch pretty soon.
I was told by a LFS that if I sold my fry to them as juveniles before they showed desirable traits, they would be sold as feeders. The same could happen with hybrids if the people selling them don't aprove of hybrids or don't think they will sell well.
I've considered buying feeder guppies that look interesting to add to the genetic diversity at my house. At some point I think that's pretty much where all new strains come from.