why all the "wilted" fish???

Magnum Man

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so over the last year, probably 1/2 of the fish I've ordered on line, from nearly every reputable seller, as been "droopy" when they arrived... many different species, and different sellers... particularly bad, have been sail fin mollies, ordered from 4 different sellers... I've been really struggling with that tank... there are a pair of vibrant and thriving super red plecos, and I have brought back one green wild type male, sail fin that is eating good, and starting to look pretty good, and there is a dalmatian sail fin, that looked pretty good when it arrived... this is out of maybe 25 males and females... the fish from Dan's ( several pairs ordered ) looked more filled out, but all proceeded to die in one week...

but it's not just mollies... both paradise fish I recently bought, both came in droopy, as well the last panda garras... fortunately the yellow acaras looked pretty good...

it just seems strange to have so many varieties, from so many sellers, it makes me feel like it's my tanks, yet there are thriving fish in these tanks???
 
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They’re stressed from their ordeal of traveling the entire English countryside in a styrofoam box and not getting fed and being cooped up in the dark that whole time and being bounced and turned over like a carnival ride . And how about the temperature going up and down and down and up and water conditions changing at every stop along the way from breeder to wholesaler to retailer and finally to you . And how about the indignity of swimming in your own you know what that whole time ? Count yourself lucky they don’t jump at you and throttle you when you open the box .
 
I wouldn't expect winter shipped fish to be stress-free, no matter the extra care & heat packs. Even where I live. I shoot for spring or fall to avoid temp extremes & possible delays...especially around holidays.

That said, I really don't know why your mollies don't do well for you.
 
I think it's likely more than shipping stress, as often in the same box will be vibrant fish, and fish alive enough, to not actually be DOA, but either won't make it through the night, or be gone in a week, or mope around for a month, not responding to medications like wormers and such..
 
There are a couple of possibilities.

You know I've always mentioned shipping season when we discuss. The stress of winter shipping when so much can go wrong can't be discounted.

Fancy mollies (ie, hybrid bred in the hobby) are very prone to Mycobacteriosis, and that makes a fish hunch and hollow out. The fish most affected by tb from my observations are rainbowfish and hardwater livebearers. The disease is pretty well everywhere on many farms, even respected ones. Add the stress of shipping to the life of a fish fighting that slow chronic killer, and the disease wins.

But other bacterial diseases will also gain the upper hand.

I think we're looking at something new. The diseases are old, the species are old, but how we get the fish isn't.The system for getting fish until recently was they were shipped from either the wild, or a farm. Upon arrival, people like me would sort out the shipping losses, anywhere from none to all, but often around 20%. Then, after a few days once they'd stabilized and there were no more 'deads' for a few days, they would be shipped to the retailer. Losses upon arrival there were unavoidable, and everyone in the supply chain knew the cause was shipping.
Stage one: anywhere from 24 hours to 72 hours crowded in bags.

I often bought my wild caught fish out of the bag, without even 'tanking' them at stage one. I took them straight home after a water change, and almost all of them rebounded and did fine. Their bagmates who stayed in the warehouse also did great. But shipping to the next source killed a lot of the latter. The pros expected it it, knew it, regretted it and factored it into their prices.

Stage two: anywhere from 12 hours to 24 hours crowded in bags, unless the airline screwed up.

Then, the aquarist would buy them. They'd be bagged and carried home carefully, and if the store was good, they were generally fine. They might have picked up treatable Ich in the store tanks. If they were hunched or folded, no one sensible bought them. Sight unseen though?

Now, over the past 15 or so years, another shipping marathon is added. I sometimes get to the major city where the wholesalers I know are, and I get my fish. They arrive alive and prosper, after a ten hour car ride in controlled conditions (a styro that doesn't get thrown around, crushed, boiled or chilled). If I get those fish shipped from the exact same places, by friends who choose carefully for me, and who pack very professionally, I'll still face serious losses. 50% on some species beats 100%. You can pack and ship like the greatest seller ever, but that box is about to be rushed through a system that only thinks of quick, and often fails at that. The workers in parcel shipping don't have time for TLC. That's inefficiency and gets them fired.

I sometimes buy from a young retailer who ships overnight. It generally takes about 30 hours for me to get the fish, via UPS. He insists on six fish per bag, which isn't good for things like corys. His prices are excellent, so I bite the bullet. If I want 8, I buy 12. If I bought between October and late April (I don't although it kills me to see what he has in the prime time for importing wild fish) I would consider myself lucky if I got a 50% survival rate. We're in the north and the climate is treacherous. If I wanted to have all year availability I would either move to a huge city or move to Europe.

I've never bought single fish. If I want winter arrivals - my daughters live in a good sized city 4 hours from here, and I buy fish from a good retailer when I visit them. I time it so I get my fish on the way back, to minimize in the bag transit time. If I can't control the transit conditions of fish from late Fall to late Spring, I expect them to arrive injured. It's harsh sounding, but it's built in to where we live.
 
if we think this is only shipping related... it makes sense, as I used to receive my fish at work... it meant the same amount of time in the bag, but I'd get them at 8:00 in the morning, and the box would sit on a table in my office, until I could take them home... now that I'm not working in town, I have to receive them on the farm, and those deliveries come between noon and 3:00 pm so they are rumbling in the back of a delivery truck on gravel roads for an additional 4-6 hours, but roughly the same time, before they got out of the bag....

... and then there was the paradise fish that were known for traveling well, being one of the 1st aquarium fish, and traveling via "slow boat from China"... they appear to only be a shadow of the original fish... some fish, like my bitterling, arrived vibrant and energetic, while the paradise fish arrived looking like death warmed over, and on their last leg...

I got a group of wild type sword fish, on the same shipment, and from the same seller, as one of the sail fin orders that almost all died... the swords were smaller, but are fat and sassy right now, and the females look pregnant, while the sail fins are only a memory
 
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Again, from unpacking thousands of fish - the smaller they are, the better they do. Even wild catching - all of the full adult fish I brought back (3 out of 81 last time) struggled, and only one of those rebounded and is still alive 3 years later. 50% of the fish that died from that trip were full adults, and the other two fish (I lost 4 in total) jumped out. Your swordtails are no surprise to me. Juvies survive better.
Even when I see fish in tanks - 'jumbo' cardinals make me walk away. From breeding cardinals, I now know from sizes that most of what we receive are between 3 and 5 months of age. They can live many years, 9 or 10 easily. So why be afraid of 'jumbos' which look to be around one year old?
They were shipped as full adults. I won't buy them. I'll hang on avoiding 3 month olds, but aiming for mid sized ones.

I'm talking wild caughts though, which is what I have the most experience with. Farmed Singapore, Malaysian or Thai fish seem to have much higher rates of disease, and while I don't avoid them completely, I buy twice what I want to keep there. Quarantine is at least 3 months for them, if they ever go into communities containing non farmed fish.

You like rare stuff and got a lot of healthy ones. See if you can keep track of when you bought them and how they survived. I know no one who orders in as many fish as you do, so if you keep records, they may say something. But consider this wrinkle. Bitterlings, an unpopular fish, survived. Mollies and paradise fish, both very common, didn't. Wild swords are downright rare and can be hard to find. They survived.

Which fish are likely to get the better attention from the sellers? The cheap, mass produced ones, or the rare ones in just a few tanks? Rarities make a company look good online. The markup is usually lower, but the prestige/advertising is higher.
 
I actually believe the swords are F-1's or F-2's as they are listed as "wild type" from the seller, which is the term I've used in my threads, so I believe they are aquarium bred, and not crossed with any other forms...

maybe I should have decided to try to breed the sword tails instead of the sail fins, which I didn't know was going to be such a challenge to just get to live...
 
I had some fish arrive on 10/22/25. 12 Black Phntom Tetra (Hyphessobrycon megalopterus) and 18 Green Fire Tetra (Aphyocharax rathbuni), all from TWS.

The Black Phantoms arrived in great shape and I didn't lose a single one. The green fires I lost 7 in the first 10 days. They were skinny, sickly looking fish. They just didn't look right, they looked like they should have been culled and never offered for sale.

I'm guessing this is becoming more and more common among larger online retailers?
 
a thought, maybe the heat packs get too hot, and the fish are exposed to, too much temperature fluctuations, by the time the heat packs get to me, they are about spent, but maybe mid, or early in delivery, they are getting too hot, and end up on the cool side of acceptable temps , by the time they get to the customer, exposing the fish to both too hot, and too cool a temp, within 24 hours, and the surviving fish are just more naturally able to tolerate those extremes...

you wouldn't think most sellers would ship fish, that look as bad as many that I see opening the box for the 1st time????
 
Heat packs are uneven, for sure.

I may be cynical, but imagine you bring in large quantities of farmed fish. You go for the very cheapest farms, the ones favoured by the large chain buyers (who drive the price down). You get skinny rathbuni tetras, and you get an order for them from a buyer who is on your database as occasional.
In a store, that buyer would walk away and wait for another shipment. But online, the fish can't be evaluated. As a seller, do you:
a) accept the fish are a mess and lose all the money you paid to buy and ship them in;
b) risk losing a small potatoes customer or two to get a little profit, or even to break even on the bad shipment you received?

A mom and pop store, when they existed, would order several thousand dollars, and if they got mad, change suppliers. So the big kids tried not to send them lousy fish if they looked bad. I heard my neighbourhood LFS yelling at a supplier who'd sent bad tetras, and he was ferocious. He also refused payment. But a large online retail seller of ordinary fish (I'm Canadian. I don't know one US company from another) probably has some poor refugee working on the packing line, and they don't know or care. Hundred dollar orders probably don't even get looked at by experienced eyes.

The last time I was in a large wholesaler of farmed fish, all the packers were being shown what fish were in what tanks, because they couldn't recognize species. I was told they worked hard, asked no questions and accepted minimum wage. That was all that mattered. In an installation with about 500 40 gallon tanks, there was one guy on the floor with expertise, and he was the filtration tech guy. The owner, who was very sharp, was in his office on screen. They called the fish 'units', and turnover was the key. The trucks came in and out.
 
so far the mentioned sellers in this thread, are all supposed to be premium on line sellers... there are some bad ones that get mentioned now and then, in other threads... "Arizona" being one... as mentioned, I buy a lot of on line fish, and there are 2 sellers I don't buy from again, no matter what they are listing... but when premium suppliers are sending out fish to "me" that end up with results the same as these "no buy" sellers, they are quickly losing their reputations....
 
A purely personal rule is that if I buy between October and April, I take my lumps. It's on me.

If I order in safe season and I get crappy fish, well then the situation changes and they'll get a complaint.

I am out of the business side of all this, completely. I buy fish like anyone buys fish now, though I still have friends who send me excellent fish. The fact some of those fish die in transit is very telling.

High end doesn't control weather and the shipping process. It increases your chances, and all important to the fish, their chances. I try to never get an ordinary fish that might be in my lfs from an online source. It's kind of unfair of me because the store then eats the losses. But they charge more to compensate.

I know, @Magnum Man that you have no local store you can use. I'm 4 hours each way from one that knows what it's doing with uncommon fish. My lfs in town is run by one of the nicest guys I know, but his purchasing is dead conservative. I try never to look at the sales lists at this time of year. I don't always succeed.
 
yes, I have 1 semi local "pet store", whose main business is dog grooming and baths, and is a chain store... I do buy frozen foods from them, and rosy minnows for the bichir... I have bought fish from them, but only when my quarantine tank is empty...
 

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