Which Fertiliser?

Egmel

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Ok, Well I've just re-scaped my tank, my new lights are in the post as is my Nutrafin CO2 Kit.

It's a 20G and will have 45w of light total (2 strips of Arcadia Freshwater and one Hagen AquaGlo). It's not heavily stocked at the moment but this may change in the future ;)

I have a pond soil base covered with sand though this was laid over 18 months ago so probably doesn't contain many nutrients any more.

Plants are:
Amazon Swords
Crypts
Spiral Vallis
Anubia Nana (no longer in the substrate, found that out last night!)
Red Ambulia
Glossostigma Elatinoides (don't think this is going to survive waiting for the lights to be delivered... I even ordered them first!)
Java Moss
Red Ludwigia (another I'm not sure will survive the wait :( )

My question is about fertilisers. I've read many posts and the pinned info on EI, had a quick search for some of the products mentioned and then found myself looking at dozens of similar but slightly different products!

I don't want to go down the full EI route, I just want something I can add every now and then to help the plants along. From what I understand this means I need the trace elements. My tap water is very hard (can't remember the value off hand but I remember thinking 'wow I knew it was hard but I didn't realise it was that hard' last time I checked it!) so I shouldn't need to add any calcium type things! I'm quite happy to mix my own formulas but also since it's a small tank I don't necessarily want to have to buy in bulk!

What does everyone else use and any recommendations?

Just so you can see this is what I currently have but as usual it's all subject to change!

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I use Sera Florena, a liquid iron based fertiliser.
You can make something similar with Iron Chelate, available from any nursery or garden centre.
 
I would either go for EI and dose the full amounts with Tropica Plant Nutrition (Normal) or just use Tropica Plant Nutrion+ on its own @ 3ml per day.

45W T8 over a 20G = 2.5WPG (+ a little) I assume this is with reflectors. Way too much light for the plant mass you have and will without a doubt leave you frustrated with algae.

This is also gonna be a struggle with yeast kits.

My suggestion would be to run 2 lights (30W) for 10 hours (preferably 1 Freshwater and the AquaGlo) and use the final light for a 'noon burst' This will mean that you don't get too much light in there all day long but you will have a highlight period in the middle to satisfy any plants you have with higher light demands. It would also give your yeast kit a fighting chance although I would've played safe and either got pressurised (which is cheaper than most think) or 2 x nutrafins.

I'm not a huge fan of the Hagen bulbs as when I used to have them they were rank, but I have read some good reviews lately so maybe they are better these days.

As for plants you need to get loads more in there or again you are looking at algae due to the light you have added!!.

In summary:
Make sure that the CO2 kit is always at optimum, run 1.5WPG 8-10 hrs with 2.25WPG in the middle. Use EI with TPN as trace (or just TPN+) (+ Add plants 75-85% substrate covered)

OR

forget the CO2 kit, do one water change every six months, dose TPN+, lighting as above.(+ Add plants 75-85% substrate covered)

OR

Leave the plants as they are. Remove the glosso or let it grow tall. Reduce the lighting down to 1.5WPG permanently. Don't dose at all and let fish do it (There aren't that many plants to dose for!!)

Andy
 
To be perfectly honest the best trace mix is the dry one you can get from Aquaessentials.co.uk. Its cheap and effective. Why pay for water?

Sam
 
I like to use seachem flourish fertilizers. We have found the best ones to be flourish excel, comprehensive or the one containing extra iron. Our plants have been thriving since switching to this brand. I do believe they are a little more expensive than some, but well worth it in the end. And you only need one capful for every 50 gallons of water, every other day. So a bottle would last you a very long time. I have to agree with supercoley1 on the lighting. Though we do have a hagen power glo bulb for our one aquarium and it works great for our plants. As long as your plants are well nourished and you have plenty of them, you won't have a problem with algae, but just make sure you don't have too much light. With the amount of lighting you have on there now, I would only leave them on for a maximum of 8 hours a day.
 
I too have 50w over a 20gallon tank giving me around 2.5WPG.

Another way around the high watts is too get some floating plants. These reduce the intensity of the light reaching the submersed plants, especially if you can get a good, sub-surface flow going around the tank which means that the 'shadows' of the floaters is always moving and so not just in one spot. If you get my drift!
I packed in fast growing stem plants to start with but have now got a mixture of slower ones too.

I use 2 x 2litre DIY yeast bottles in tandem swapped out alternatively every 5-7 days or so. This keeps my drop checker green and CO2 relatively stable.

I also dose my tank, not with the El method but with the PMDD (Poor Man's Daily Dosing) type regime(suggested by SuperColey - thanks again). I got the basic dry powders from AE but made them up at about 1/3 the normal concentration. I dose daily at about a 'capfull' of macro's and trace each. I do 3 x 10% water changes per week. You have to experiment a bit to find the right dosing regime for your tank. I have a heavy fish load so I dose less macro's - sometimes!

I do still get algae, I think most of us do, it is just much less of a problem than it used to be.

Good luck
 
Thanks for the feedback people. :good:

I checked my Nitrates this morning and they were around 10ppm, I'm guessing this possibly isn't going to be high enough so it looks like I'll need to dose more than just the trace elements anyway. The one thing I'm worried about is how this will affect shrimp since I've been told that they don't like high nitrate levels... though I also seem to remember reading that there's a difference between organic and inorganic nitrates.

There seems to be a couple of recommendations for the AE dry ferts so I'll investigate that route.

My suggestion would be to run 2 lights (30W) for 10 hours (preferably 1 Freshwater and the AquaGlo) and use the final light for a 'noon burst' This will mean that you don't get too much light in there all day long but you will have a highlight period in the middle to satisfy any plants you have with higher light demands. It would also give your yeast kit a fighting chance although I would've played safe and either got pressurised (which is cheaper than most think) or 2 x nutrafins.
Ok, what I think I'll do is when the new double ballast arrives, swap out the single ballast I currently have running an on-off-on 5-2-5, run just the 2 lamps (one of each on 5-2-5 still) and the Nutrafin CO2 for a while and see how things go. If some of the higher light plants look like they need a boost then I can put the extra lamp in for a noon-boost (maybe changing to a different photo-period so they get 4 continuous hours of high light). If I need extra CO2 then I can hook up an extra DIY bottle onto the nutrafin ladder (I seem to remember seeing this elsewhere) I've got a drop checker coming too so that I can keep an eye on the levels.
I'm not a huge fan of the Hagen bulbs as when I used to have them they were rank, but I have read some good reviews lately so maybe they are better these days.
Well it's a darn sight better than the household one I had in there before but I can't compare it to any of the other branded ones!
As for plants you need to get loads more in there or again you are looking at algae due to the light you have added!!.
Spot the student doing it on the cheap... ;) I intend to take cuttings and off shoots from the ones I bought to increase the plant life... for the last few months I've been pulling out 2-3 vallis and crypt runners every fortnight, I'm hoping this wont stop and that I'll end up with more plants soon enough. (Would also have helped if Java Plants had sent me everything I asked for but that's by the by ;) )

Another way around the high watts is too get some floating plants. These reduce the intensity of the light reaching the submersed plants, especially if you can get a good, sub-surface flow going around the tank which means that the 'shadows' of the floaters is always moving and so not just in one spot. If you get my drift!
I packed in fast growing stem plants to start with but have now got a mixture of slower ones too.
That's a good idea, I haven't got any floating plants at the moment, have you got any suggestions of ones that wont take over too quickly!
 
Ok having investigated ferts I found this page about how to reproduce the tropica nutrition+ with the dry mixes on AE.

Quick tally says that at ~3ml a day I'll get through ~1lt a year

Tropica plant nutrition+ is £29.50 for 2 x 500ml

Dry fets from AE (would give me lots more of some than I need for a year... how well do they keep?)
Potassium Nitrate - 100g £2.99 (enough for 1lt)
Magnesium Sulphate - 100g £2.99 (enough for ~3lt)
Mono Potassium Phosphate - 100g £2.99 (enough for >20lt)
Trace Elements mix - 100g £5.50 (enough for >10lt)
PMDD Storage Container x 4 £1.80

Additives from http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/
Potassium Sorbate Power 25g £2.15 (enough for >100lt)
Ascobic Acid ( Vitamin C ) 50g £2.50 (enough for >100lt)

Total for all in one for the litre+... £20.92 (+ a slight increase for delivery from 2 places) and yes I'm aware that there's only one ingredient limiting this price to 1lt, it would be much more economical to up the Potassium Nitrate and Magnesium Sulphate.

Verdict is yes it's much cheaper to mix your own even on a small tank, providing the solution/dry ferts will keep.

My final question is how on earth you measure 0.2g of something?! :crazy:
 
You don't measure 0.2g of something. The most accurate way of measuring these things is to make up a much larger concentrate.

i.e. make up 5 litres of each solution. Then shake it and mix it well before putting 500ml in your container. then stick the rest of the sealed bottle in the garage/shed. 5 Litre container of DI water is £3 in Boyes.

Also if you are after saving money then you don't need 4 PMDD containers. You only need 2.

1 for macros (500ml with pot nit, Pot Phos and Pot Sulph in it
1 for micros (500ml with traces in it)

The only reason to keep the whole lot seperate is to make sure that the phos and iron don't mix.

Andy
 
Ok, I'm looking at going down the all-in-one route, so I could make 5lts which would mean that the smallest increment will be 1g which I'm fairly sure my kitchen scales will manage.

How long will the solution last once I've made it up, bearing in mind that with current tank size 5lts is 5yrs worth!

I am after saving money but I'd rather keep the dry ferts separate in case I decide to change the ratios at a later stage... though thinking about it I could forget those pots and use the recycled Chinese takeaway pots we have accumulated dozens of (my housemates spend cash on takeaways... I spend it on my fish :look: !)

I was just going to use an old fizzy pop bottle to store the mix in and a measuring spoon to measure the dose.

The Potassium Sorbate and Ascobic Acid stop the chemical reaction between the iron and the phosphate apparently, it's similar to what they use in TNP. :shifty:

edit : Boyes haven't ventured this far south... was thinking of either making my own or finding a source on campus somewhere... :shifty:
 
I'm not a huge fan of the Hagen bulbs as when I used to have them they were rank, but I have read some good reviews lately so maybe they are better these days.
Ok well just looking at the difference between them in the lid the Hagen one is much dimmer than the arcadia one. It could be due to age as it's coming up to 6 months old now but even so I didn't realise that they deteriorated that rapidly.
 
It is more likely to be the colour rendition of the light that makes it seem dimmer rather than the light ageing.

There are different colour renditions and some bulbs are meant to give off more of a yellow look whereas the Arcadia Freshwater you have is a daylight bulb (6500K). An Arcadia Original Tropical would look much dimmer and pinker as it is (4500K)

Most household energy saving bulbs are 2700K which sould be what your hagen one is. These are more for reptiles or fish that don't like too much light.


When you say you are going for an all in one solution what do you mean? Are you doing JamesC's all in one mix with a different chelator? If not you will have problems when the iron and phosphate mix in the bottle!!


andy
 
When you say you are going for an all in one solution what do you mean? Are you doing JamesC's all in one mix with a different chelator? If not you will have problems when the iron and phosphate mix in the bottle!!

from JamesC site
Normally it is advised to keep potassium phosphate and iron traces in separate solutions to prevent any reaction occurring that results in an insoluble precipitate of iron phosphate. The chelated traces that are used contain iron that is complexed and as long as the iron remains complexed it should be safe from any reaction with the phosphate. The problem is that once the traces are in solution the chelator tends to deteriorate and so releasing the the iron. I discovered that the chelators used are a lot more stable in a solution with a pH of 6 or less. After a bit of experimenting I ended up using E300 Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) which not only keeps the solution acidic but is also an anti-oxidant. Enough is used so as to maintain a pH of 6. Another problem with keeping traces in solution is that they often tend to develop mould. To combat this I use E202 Potassium Sorbate which is a yeast and mould inhibitor. Luckily the Potassium Sorbate works most effectively at a pH around 6 which is what the solution is kept at.
...
So far the solution has remained clear and bright and has had no settling out for up to two months. Plants still grow and pearl as before. Oddly the solution turns a green colour similar to TPN+.

As it is I've ordered a 250ml bottle of TPN+ with the intention of seeing how I get on with this whole planted tank malarky. Assuming it all goes well I'll switch to dry ferts all-in-one when I run out of the commercial liquid.
 
I went the other way myself (as did some others) We used to do the dry ferts but when TPN+ is the perfect mix why bother trying to save money and alter this and that when TPN+ is so cheap!!

Andy
 
I went the other way myself (as did some others) We used to do the dry ferts but when TPN+ is the perfect mix why bother trying to save money and alter this and that when TPN+ is so cheap!!
But as far as I'm concerned TPN+ isn't cheap, especially not once you've added postage and looked at the long term.. the all-in-one page offers a recipe that replicates TPN+ (near as makes no difference) so if I'm going to get into planted tanks then I will probably try the dry ferts route. I did some further calculations and you can make 10l of all-in-one for ~£50 inc postage (not including water which I would use my special filter to provide - can't remember the brand but it removes practically everything that isn't H2O) and still have a good stock of most of the dry ferts.

On the other hand I might decide that I don't get into planted tanks and then I wont have wasted money (unlikely looking at my range of pots in the garden)

On the gripping hand I might just decide that I don't have the storage space for all the dry ferts and that I'm fundamentally lazy in which case I'll just buy more TPN+ :shifty:
 

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