Where Does Bacteria Come From?

[demonmagus]

Hi, I've always wondered where the 'friendly filter bacteria' come from, can anyone explain at all?


thanks

 

[Torrean]

I'm under the impression that it comes from the air. I'v heard some say it's in the water and that makes sense if you have well water but if you have city water then the chlorine levels should kill off any bacteria. I bet it's in the air.

 

[scorphonic]

It is quite possible that they enter the water from the air and another possibility is that the enter through the tap water you use. Thats about it really...one or the other!! I dont know which one but I'd be more certain that its from the air.

Its also interesting to note that there is also a great deal of DNA in the air!! Scary eh!

 

[raptorrex]

the chances are that the bacteria is present on all the things you put in the aquarium. and the one we all forgot......us ourselfs

 

[Bignose]

I'm under the impression that it comes from the air. I'v heard some say it's in the water and that makes sense if you have well water but if you have city water then the chlorine levels should kill off any bacteria. I bet it's in the air.

Actually, it is becoming quite a problem today about chloramine resistant oxidizing bacteria. The problem is that the bacteria strains, the same ones we culture in our fishtanks, are able to take the amine part (ammonia) off the choramine and use it as an energy source. Exactly how they use the ammonia in our fishtanks. The real problem with these is that ammonia are then neutralizing the chloramine that should be used to kill E. coli and all the other nasties that we really do want killed in our water. And you can't just use more chloramine since that is just more food for those resistant strains. One study I read said that in the year-long study, over 60% of chloramine using water companies in the US and Australia had problems with oxidizing bacteria.

So, if your water company uses chloramine, guess what strains probably ended up in your tank? The resistant ones from the water company. Otherwise, there are bacteria pretty much everywhere. No treatment process at the plant will be 100% effective. These oxidizing bacteria are in every bit of water everywhere. Unless you keep a room like the clean room Intel uses to make microchips, life is going to find a way to get into pretty much any water anywhere.

 

[rdd1952]

I posed this question over a year ago in this thread. General consensus was through the air. I think the first bacteria either enters via the air or on our hands/arms as we place things in the tank. I strongly believe that is why some people can do a fishless cycle in 2 to 3 weeks and others it tanks 2 months. Until that first ammonia processing bacteria finds its way into the tank, the ammonia won't begin to drop. And once ammonia is finally being processed, the nitrite processing bacteria also has to enter the tank. I tried a fishless cycling experiment a year or more ago and after 16 days, My ammonia had still not dropped at all. Apparently, no bacteria had ever entered the tank to start the process. I finally broke the tank down and gave up.

 

[raptorrex]

I posed this question over a year ago in this thread. General consensus was through the air. I think the first bacteria either enters via the air or on our hands/arms as we place things in the tank. I strongly believe that is why some people can do a fishless cycle in 2 to 3 weeks and others it tanks 2 months. Until that first ammonia processing bacteria finds its way into the tank, the ammonia won't begin to drop. And once ammonia is finally being processed, the nitrite processing bacteria also has to enter the tank. I tried a fishless cycling experiment a year or more ago and after 16 days, My ammonia had still not dropped at all. Apparently, no bacteria had ever entered the tank to start the process. I finally broke the tank down and gave up.

well i would feel this was down to the way you tried to do the cycle, more than lack of bacteria. it is more often a balance, between the water changes, the amount of ammonia and the type of filtration used. this is not to say i feel you did things wrong!! simply there is more to a cycle, than just having the benificial bacteria in you water. this is witnessed by members who have cycled a tank. and then express concern that a new cycle is taking longer, or even less time.

 

[thegnu]

you could say its our planet. its everything around us that gives life to bacteria, and us fortunately, (or unfortunately).
i'm not saying there's not bacteria out in space. scientists think there is bacteria living in the comets whirling through space as its got lots of life giving stuff in it.

 

[raptorrex]

you could say its our planet. its everything around us that gives life to bacteria, and us fortunately, (or unfortunately).
i'm not saying there's not bacteria out in space. scientists think there is bacteria living in the comets whirling through space as its got lots of life giving stuff in it.

there is a lot of evidence that the basic elements that make us up did come from outerspace. there was a song, i think from the sixtys. with the line "we are all star dust". wonder if the song writer know how right he was?

 

[rdd1952]

well i would feel this was down to the way you tried to do the cycle, more than lack of bacteria. it is more often a balance, between the water changes, the amount of ammonia and the type of filtration used. this is not to say i feel you did things wrong!! simply there is more to a cycle, than just having the benificial bacteria in you water. this is witnessed by members who have cycled a tank. and then express concern that a new cycle is taking longer, or even less time.

I'm not quite certain what you mean. You don't do water changes at all during a fishless cycle unless things are going wrong and you want to try to kick start it again. But if no beneficial bacteria ever gets into the tank from where ever it comes from, the tank will never cycle. I agree that there is more to a cycle than just getting the bacteria in the water. You obviously have to provide a food supply (ammonia) and have proper heat and aeration. The filter probably makes some difference but who knows how much. After all the bacteria can only multiply so fast and more water passing through it (10 times/hr vs. 5 times/hr) should only have a minimal effect on the cycling process.

I think the place so many people get stalled is on the nitrite. It seems to take forever and that is 2-fold. First, from everything I've ready, the bacteria that process nitrite simply multiply slower than those for ammonia. Second, there is more nitrite to process. When you start, you add ammonia and wait for it to drop. You add more and wait. Once the ammonia is processing in 10 to 12 hours, you're adding it at least once and probably twice a day which means you are also adding nitrite every time as the ammonia becomes nitrite. It would be interesting to have a test kit that could truly measure how high the nitrite gets at the top of the spike.

The bottom line is if no bacteria ever gets into a tank (like in a “clean roomâ€￾ as someone mentioned both in this thread and in the old one) the tank will never cycle regardless of how many water changes you do, how much ammonia you add or what type filtration you have.

 

[raptorrex]

well i would feel this was down to the way you tried to do the cycle, more than lack of bacteria. it is more often a balance, between the water changes, the amount of ammonia and the type of filtration used. this is not to say i feel you did things wrong!! simply there is more to a cycle, than just having the benificial bacteria in you water. this is witnessed by members who have cycled a tank. and then express concern that a new cycle is taking longer, or even less time.

I'm not quite certain what you mean. You don't do water changes at all during a fishless cycle unless things are going wrong and you want to try to kick start it again. But if no beneficial bacteria ever gets into the tank from where ever it comes from, the tank will never cycle. I agree that there is more to a cycle than just getting the bacteria in the water. You obviously have to provide a food supply (ammonia) and have proper heat and aeration. The filter probably makes some difference but who knows how much. After all the bacteria can only multiply so fast and more water passing through it (10 times/hr vs. 5 times/hr) should only have a minimal effect on the cycling process.

I think the place so many people get stalled is on the nitrite. It seems to take forever and that is 2-fold. First, from everything I've ready, the bacteria that process nitrite simply multiply slower than those for ammonia. Second, there is more nitrite to process. When you start, you add ammonia and wait for it to drop. You add more and wait. Once the ammonia is processing in 10 to 12 hours, you're adding it at least once and probably twice a day which means you are also adding nitrite every time as the ammonia becomes nitrite. It would be interesting to have a test kit that could truly measure how high the nitrite gets at the top of the spike.

The bottom line is if no bacteria ever gets into a tank (like in a “clean roomâ€￾ as someone mentioned both in this thread and in the old one) the tank will never cycle regardless of how many water changes you do, how much ammonia you add or what type filtration you have.

but isnt that the point. you cant avoid getting the bacteria in there its on us in the water and in the air. unless you have a clean room tank setup you cant avoid getting it in there, if you cant manage a cycle, it is most unlikley to be because of lack of bacteria. there will most likley be another reason.

 

[andywg]

but isnt that the point. you cant avoid getting the bacteria in there its on us in the water and in the air. unless you have a clean room tank setup you cant avoid getting it in there, if you cant manage a cycle, it is most unlikley to be because of lack of bacteria. there will most likley be another reason.

I agree.

One only has to see the posts by Bignose to see it is in the water. The companies started using chlorine to kill off water borne bacteria. This was not as effective as they wanted, so they started using chloramine. this is also not as effective as desired (and possibly less so than chlroine).

Those very facts show that there will be bacteria in the water. It will also be in the air, on us and all sorts of places. The quick, cheap, Tescos Value answer to "where does the first bacteria come from?" is "Everywhere".

 

[rdd1952]

but isnt that the point. you cant avoid getting the bacteria in there its on us in the water and in the air.

My point is that the cycle won't start until the first bacteria enters the tank. In the situation I had, it went 16 days with absolutely no change in the ammonia. That was simply a case of no bacteria ever being present in the tank to start processing the ammonia. If there had been, it would have started dropping. The fact is, we don't know where it really is or comes from. Everyone's conjecture is that it's airborne. After all, we always say there's no use to try to start a cycle on a new tank with the water from an old tank because there aren't any bacteria in the water column. If that's the case, then it has to come from the air or off us. So if it's on us and we never stick our hands in the water like in the situation with my tank (placed airstones and filter in tank, added water and ammonia and never had my hands in the water), once again, no bacteria in the water.

Another interesting thing about this is, we always say that you must have a food supply (ammonia) or the bacteria can’t develop or survive and if for some reason the power goes off, you must keep the filter wet or the bacteria will die. If that is the case, how can the bacteria be in the air? There’s no ammonia in the air that I’m aware of (I guess there’s actually a little of everything in the air) and it’s definitely dry unless the humidity will keep it alive and if that is the case, it could survive on a dry filter. Can bacteria live off the sweat and bodily fluids on us?

So back to the original question, where does it come from? It isn’t present in the water column, and it can’t live in the air or on use because it doesn’t have a food supply and there isn’t enough moisture to keep it wet.

 

[andywg]

I fear you have misunderstood a few points that are generally made.

That was simply a case of no bacteria ever being present in the tank to start processing the ammonia. If there had been, it would have started dropping.

Is it possible that there was an extremely low concentration and the test kits we use weren't sensitive enough to measure it? Yes. Is it possible other, external factors were affecting the ability of the bacteria to reproduce? Yes. there is far more to a bacteria colony than just giving it ammonia and water.

The fact is, we don't know where it really is or comes from. Everyone's conjecture is that it's airborne.

If you read the posts by Bignose and I, you may find that is not the case

After all, we always say there's no use to try to start a cycle on a new tank with the water from an old tank because there aren't any bacteria in the water column. If that's the case, then it has to come from the air or off us.

We actually say that there is a very small amount of bacteria present in the water as it prefers to grow on something rather than free float. There will still be some, but not enought to have a great effect in aiding the population of a new tank to grow.

So if it's on us and we never stick our hands in the water like in the situation with my tank (placed airstones and filter in tank, added water and ammonia and never had my hands in the water), once again, no bacteria in the water.

Save from the water from the tap (see posts above).

Another interesting thing about this is, we always say that you must have a food supply (ammonia) or the bacteria can’t develop or survive and if for some reason the power goes off, you must keep the filter wet or the bacteria will die. If that is the case, how can the bacteria be in the air? There’s no ammonia in the air that I’m aware of (I guess there’s actually a little of everything in the air) and it’s definitely dry unless the humidity will keep it alive and if that is the case, it could survive on a dry filter. Can bacteria live off the sweat and bodily fluids on us?

Many organisms have spores that allow them to live through conditions far from perfect, and some that are downright hostile to everything. I am not an expert on Nitrospira spp but I would not be surprised to hear it can form spores, thus allowing it to survive a dry environment devoid of food.

So back to the original question, where does it come from? It isn’t present in the water column, and it can’t live in the air or on use because it doesn’t have a food supply and there isn’t enough moisture to keep it wet.

I think you will find enough doubt above to prevent I, and many others, from believing this conclusion.

 

[rdd1952]

Andywg, I understand what you're saying and what has been said. It's just that so many things that we believe, contradict the belief that the bacteria are present in the water or air or wherever. Take the post by bignose for example. I can understand that the bacteria in our water are the ones that are resistant to chlorine and chloramines. it makes sense. There is always a strain of bacteria that develops a resistance to the things that usually destroy it. That's the reason they have to come up with new antibiotics for us. Because over time, the bacteria become immune or resistant to the one that worked 10 years ago.

But in that case, doesn't that mean that our bacteria colonies would also be resistant to them. So, in theory, we could use straight tap water without dechlorinator and not do any harm to the colony if they have developed that resistance. And also clean our filters and media under plain tap water without fear of ruining our bacteria colony. And we tell newbies to never do that.

Also, on your point about there actually being a very small amount of bacteria in the water. If that is the case, why wouldn't using it to start the cycle help? The sooner we have bacteria in the tank, the sooner we start developing the colony. If we can guarantee that it's going in with the first water, why not do it?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing. More like playing devil's advocate. The fact is I don't know where the bacteria comes from and I don't think any of us have proof to support our claims. It's just that a lot of ideas and beliefs contradict each other. For almost every hypothesis (hope I’m using this right as I remember the “carbonâ€￾ thread….lol) about where they come from, you can find another belief that contradicts it. I asked over a year ago and didn't get an answer or proof and there's still no proof here either. Without doing some expensive cycling experiments (I sure don't have a "clean room"), I don't think any of us have the capability to find the answer unless it's out there on the web and we havne't found it yet.