What to do with my Rams?

[paulinajgu]

Hi All
I have 140L and added all at the same time:
2 German Blue, 2 Gold, 2 Electric Blue
All three as pairs, male & female.
At the beginning male german claimed a corner of the tank and seemed to chase any other away, particularly blue male who absolutely loves that area due to cycling pump blowing him away They however live peacefully now.
However now, gold male claimed majority of the tank, and gets a bit aggressive towards all other rams, including females. What do i do? Can i tame him? should i return him to the shop? If so, with or without the female he came with or can she be in the tank without the male? He is disturbing peace in my tank

 

[PheonixKingZ]

@Byron will be able to help. I think it may have something to do with the males wanting 2 females? I'm not sure. What is your temperature?

 

[paulinajgu]

I would be very grateful.

Temperature: 28.9 Celcius or 84F

 

[Essjay]

One male will want the whole tank for himself, he won't be willing to share with another male. He may or may not pair up with one of the females; as they are all the same species it doesn't matter which of the three colours she is. If a pair does form, the pair will not tolerate any other rams in their territory.

You best option would be to watch them to see if any pairs have formed. If there is one pair, keep that and rehome the other four. If two pairs have formed, keep one of them and you should be able to rehome the second pair quite easily as a pair.
If a pair do form, don't expect them to be the same colour.

 

[paulinajgu]

Oh no! This is not good. The other two males are living peacefully with each other and 3 other females. Should I just remove this golden one that seem to be a problem and see how things progress?

 

[Essjay]

It is very likely that you'll end up with just one male. I would not keep more than one male unless the tank was very large. These fish are territorial cichlids and keeping more than one male in your 140 litre (37 gallon) tank probably won't work.

Can I ask what the footprint of your tank is, please. A lot of UK tanks are tall rather than long tanks, and knowing the dimensions will help.

 

[paulinajgu]

61L 41W 58H
Yes, it is tall

I am waiting for my bolivian male to arrive actually.
This is so annoying as somebody who sells them looked at the tank and confirmed all this would be ok. I am terrified to think what it would be if I put my bolivian in there who is a male. Should I then just keep him as male and other arms only females??? Or keep one german male too?

I am so annoyed... they just want to sell fish without care and I dont want them to die

 

[Essjay]

One lesson we have all had to learn the hard way is that advice from fish shop workers cannot be trusted. So many of them haven't a clue and just make things up, or they don't care, they just want to make a sale.


That is a small footprint 61 x 41 cm is 24 x 16 inches for those who don't use metric.

It is the size for just 1 pair of rams I'm afraid. And it is too small for Bolivian rams. Information form here:

Mikrogeophagus ramirezi – Ram (Apistogramma ramirezi, Papiliochromis ramirezi, Microgeophagus ramirezi) — Seriously Fish

www.seriouslyfish.com

Mikrogeophagus altispinosus – Bolivian Ram (Crenicara altispinosa, Microgeophagus altispinosus, Papiliochromis altispinosus) — Seriously Fish

www.seriouslyfish.com

This is the best site for fish research as it is written by experts. So many sites and YouTube videos are by people who just keep fish without really knowing anything about them.

For the sake of the fish, you need to rehome all but a pair of rams, and cancel the order for the Bolivian ram if you can. Rams need to choose their own mates; putting together just any male and any female usually results in a dead fish. The way to see if a pair has formed is to sit where you can watch the fish and remain motionless for up to half an hour. Once they forget you are there they'll start to behave more naturally. Look for a male which allows one of the females to remain near him without trying to drive her away. This could well be a bonded pair, though it's not guaranteed. Keep this pair and rehome the others. Keeping all six together with a Bolivian ram is, I'm afraid, a time bomb waiting to go off.




One other thing that raises alarm bells for me is your location. Living in London, I assume you have hard water? Rams are soft water fish. They survive in the shop tank because they are not there long enough to be harmed. When soft water fish are kept in hard water, the hardness minerals (mainly calcium) collects in their bodies particularly in the kidneys and they don't live as long as they should.
Look on your water company's website for hardness. If they give it, you need a number and the unit of measurement rather than misleading words. The unit is important as UK water companies often use different units from fish keeping and we need to convert it.



I'm sorry to have to tell you things you don't want to hear, but we all have the welfare of your fish at heart.

 

[Byron]

I concur with essjay. Leaving the fish as is is not going to turn out well, and adding a Bolivian Ram is only going to make it even worse, and the Bolivian will most likely be killed fairly soon as he being the newcomer will be targeted by all the rams.

 

[paulinajgu]

What if I get bolivian and just keep the 3 females? They seem to be peaceful. Would that make a difference?

 

[Essjay]

The tank is too small for a Bolivian ram and females rams are also territorial. They will object to the Bolivian ram and will quite likely start fighting each other as they mature.

Can you confirm the hardness of your water, please. If it is as hard a London water often is, it is too hard for rams so they will not live as long as they should. There are things you can do to 'soften' the water if it is hard.

 

[paulinajgu]

Its 12Gh. Hope that's ok. It really seems people in the fish shop have no clue.
One of them told me today to bring the aggressive fish back... and the other said just keep it let them establish territory

 

[Essjay]

The maximum quoted hardness for rams is 179 ppm/10 dH. Is your hardness in dH (German degrees) or degrees Clarke?


You can 'soften' the water by adding pure water to the tank - something like reverse osmosis water or deionised water. These have no minerals at all in them so mixing them with tap water lowers the hardness. But it means using this pure water at every single water change and is not something to be undertaken lightly.


A lot of fish shop employees don't care. After all, if the fish get sick, you'll go back and buy medication; if they die, you'll go back and buy more fish

 

[Byron]

The water is one issue, but we must not lose sight of the primary issue of tank size and rams. This cannot work.

 

[Lajos_Detari]

I agree with Essjay.
I think you can only have one pair of Ram with your size of tank.

Rams are very territorial.
They will fight all the time with your size of tank.
All Cichlids require big space if you want to put them together.