What Has Happened?

[Paradise3]

I started off with 7 home bred females and 1 home bred male. I lost my home bred male first, he suddenly became very lethargic and slow. Then i kept losing home bred females to the same symptoms. So i was left with 3 home bred females. My first fish added to the tank when they stopped dying for about 3 weeks were 4 oto's and 2 Threadfin rainbowfish. I watched the ammonia and other water chemistry very well after because i knew that was quite alot of fish in 1 go. They stayed stable and the tank was thriving again. So after 2 weeks i added 2 more Threadfin rainbowfish and 1 male guppy. Then 1 oto died for no apparent reason. About 2-3 weeks after the oto died i added 2 dwarf neon rainbowfish and 1 female guppy. After that the shop bought male guppy has died and 2 home bred females have died. So the stocking today is:
2x Female guppies(1 shop bought, 1 home bred)
3x Otocinclus
4x Threadfin rainbowfish
2x Dwarf neon rainbowfish

The symptoms are as follows.
Home bred male guppy - Lethargic, slow, resting on the bottom alot.
First 4 home bred females - Same as above.
Oto - None.
Latest home bred females - Clamped fins, white dusty appearance.

Any ideas? I've posted in the emergency section aswell.

Alessa x.

 

[OldMan47]

My first inclination is to ask about the mineral content of your water. Nitrogen is far from the only thing that must be correct in a tank for fish to thrive. Try telling a saltwater person that his fish should thrive simply because it is not seeing ammonia or nitrites in its freshwater environment. That is an extreme example but the concept is no less valid for common livebearers. Most common livebearers require water that is fairly high in mineral content and some locations are simply deficient in mineral content in tap water. That is very much like putting fresh water fish in salt water. Although the fish are well adapted to water that we consider fresh water, they are not well adapted to removing their own bodily water content in a low mineral content water situation. That means they end up with just too much water in their flesh, much as we see if we leave our hands in tap water too long, and it is something they cannot deal with. For us it is a mere inconvenience to have that puffy look to our finger tips but to the fish it is their entire body that ends up with too much water content. It will result in their death in a fairly short time.

 

[Paradise3]

I really don't get you there..... I managed to follow the first line.

Alessa x.

 

[the biffster]

it could be down to shock from low carbonate hardness low pH KH GH
something like that if i understand correct

 

[BigIan]

What Om47 is saying is that live bearers need a certain mineral content to the water, this helps them to regulate the ammount of water in there bodys and so stay healthy.

also does this sound like the illness you have?

 

[the biffster]

What Om47 is saying is that live bearers need a certain mineral content to the water, this helps them to regulate the ammount of water in there bodys and so stay healthy.

osmotic balance you mean

 

[BigIan]

What Om47 is saying is that live bearers need a certain mineral content to the water, this helps them to regulate the ammount of water in there bodys and so stay healthy.

osmotic balance you mean

If you want to be a pedant then yes.

 

[the biffster]

What Om47 is saying is that live bearers need a certain mineral content to the water, this helps them to regulate the ammount of water in there bodys and so stay healthy.

osmotic balance you mean

If you want to be a pedant then yes.

no i wasn't been pedantic i was just making sure i got the right term
i didn't want to look a right ----- well i will let you fill in the blanks yes i have
heard of this before with endlers and guppies before

 

[Paradise3]

It's not velvet. I've kept guppies for years and i grew the ones that have died from baby in the very same water(well not exactly the same but you get what i mean) Except the store bought male that died.

Alessa x.

 

[OldMan47]

The point I was trying to make is that water is more than simple H2O. It contains minerals and has some kind of pH. The mineral content is an essential element for all fish. Some, such as tetras, require very low mineral content to thrive. On the other hand many of the common livebearers require, or at least benefit from, high mineral content. That means that the common pet shop molly will do far better in very hard water than in almost any other type. It also means that many of our common livebearers will do better in water such as I get from my tap, fairly hard with a high pH, than they will do with nice tetra soft water or other similar tank conditions.
The difference between high mineral content and high GH water is a bit difficult to define but truly does exist. In general, it is fairly reasonable to equate hard water with high mineral content water, even though they are not at all the same thing. The very hard water reflects minerals with a high calcium or magnesium content being dissolved in the water while high mineral content includes all minerals, not just calcium and magnesium. Since calcium and magnesium are the more common anion minerals, you can almost say that high GH water is high mineral content water and you will be right much of the time.
The whole osmotic pressure argument revolves around a misconception that fish must have a low osmotic pressure to do well. Nothing is further from the truth. What the fish need is the right osmotic pressure for the water that they are adapted to deal with. That means that fish adapted to best deal with brackish conditions would be best kept in brackish conditions, fish adapted to very low mineral content water, as we see in some South Americans, would do best exposed to very low mineral content water and fish well adapted to high mineral content fresh water would do best with exactly that water. For me that means that I must find fish well adapted to my tap water and simply use that water with the fish. Fish that prefer harder or softer water will simply not do as well in my water as they do in waters better suited to their needs.
Fresh water fish urinate constantly to remove unwanted water in their body tissues. That works fine for fish who are designed to do just that. Other fish, like typical salt water fish, do not do well in that situation. Instead they will do better in water that is well suited for them. They are quite able to add water to their body structure by simply adsorbing it. Now we must look at those very same fish. If you are a strongly survival oriented person when it comes to your fish, you will be doing 20% or larger water changes. Those water changes will mean that you have established water that is either easier or harder for your fish to adapt to. If you have more minerals than the fish would see naturally, you can expect your fish to react as if they have not had enough water changes done, they have not.
On the other hand, some fish have no real "ideal" for their survival and for them to thrive in your tanks is simple.
Where that leaves us is the fish being studied by this group do not represent a cohesive structure that we all will recognize.

 

[Paradise3]

It's been 2 days since i cleaned it out and there have been no more deaths....
I think that some of the junk getting caught under the rockery was causing it so, when i put things back in the tank i made it so more flow goes through the rocks. This way things get blown out from under it, like poop.

Alessa x.

 

[OldMan47]

If it works for the fish in your tank, it is the right thing to do Alessa. Only you and your fish can truly analyze the results of your actions. The rest of us are looking in from the outside and trying hard to understand your fish and their needs.

 

[Paradise3]

They are all still alive!!! I think i fixed it!

Alessa x.

 

[the biffster]

well done just keep an eye on
them for a few days looking good

 

[Paradise3]

Yay! All still surviving strong and healthy.

Alessa x.