What Am I Doing Wrong?

[rabbut]

Hi,
I'm sure many of you are aware of the problems I have been having over the last few months with my discus. I am starting to think about why I may be having so many issues. I belive it may be something that I am doing rather than the fish. I appologise if this thread appears to be just throwing information at you, but I feel ATM like giving up on them due to the issues. 6 months of constant issues and deaths is rather de-moralising

Equipment;

335l tank running 2 150w heaters, set to 30c, Fluval 404 running foam all round. 3X54w T5 light tubes

Tank parameters;

Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate >12.5, pH 6.5 (recently raised to 7 after ceasing the injection of CO2) GH 8 O2 5mg/l.

Tank mates

7 cardinal tetras, 9 rummynoses, 2 l66 plecos, 5 carry adolfi, 2 corry metae

wormed mothly with Kisuri Wormer Plus.

I have done yet more reserch, and am now planning the following changes;

Swap out some of the foam for Bio rings and carbon and filter floss, switch wormers to liquid puppy wormer (my supervisor @ work and discus keaper of 30years swears by this stuff) and adding more circulation.

Any thoughts or input into the above? The liquid wormer will be dosed as medicated food, not as a bath.

Thanks to all

Rabbut

 

[Colin_T]

unless you are feeding your fish on live food that is collected from a waterway with fish, snails and birds in it, you don't need to keep deworming the fish. By doing this as often as you have been, there is the possibility any worms in the tank could become resistant to the medication.

There is no need to swap the filter materials, sponges are fine. If you put carbon in the filter it will remove chemicals (medications & plant fertilisers) from the water.

If you were running CO2 and had the temperature at 30C there might not have been enough oxygen in the water and the fish could be suffering from an oxygen deficiency. The warmer the water the lower its oxygen holding capacity. This combined with the extra CO2 could be an issue. Try increasing surface turbulence.

I don't know the rest of the story about your fish but if they are fed a varied diet and kept in clean warm water they don't have too many problems.

 

[joecoral]

what's your water change regime like?

 

[rabbut]

10% dailys Joe, equivilant to 53% weekly

Colin, I feed frozen food regularly, but I personaly doubt that UV radiation works to sterilise it, and am sceptical about other methods, so worming may still be necissary. A number of discus keepers I know worm regularly and belive it essential. I know that some keepers don't bother though, so don't realy know how necissary it is...

Oxygen content is at 5mg/l which is maximum saturation at 30c, without super saturating the water, an occurance that is rarely seen, and is highly problematic to fish. It caurses air pockets in their blood I know oxygen is depleated in high temps and took steps to prevwnt it falling to low.

Thanks for all the replys so far
Rabbut

 

[Colin_T]

Theoretically once a tank is free of worms there should be no reason to worm the fish again unless they are being reinfected from an outside source. Frozen foods are unlikely to transmit worm eggs and even if they did it would be unlikely many if any eggs survive the freezer. There's a possibility some might but it would be low.
Many parasitic worms require several hosts to continue their lifecycle. Quite often it involves snails or crustaceans as well as the fish. Some even need to go through a water bird as well. Livebearing worms like Camallanus (threadworms) can be transmitted from fish to fish but they would not survive being frozen.

Most internal problems in discus are caused by protozoan or bacterial infections and not worms. Hexamita can be an issue.
These internal problems can bring on similar symptoms to worms infestations, whereby the fish loses condition and gradually wastes away. They often have stringy white faeces and don't eat properly.

If you have been losing fish for a while you might consider having one or two sick ones autopsied by a fish vet. then you would know exactly what is killing them.

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

I also believe that the worming isn't needed unless you are adding new fish, in which case these fish should be quarantined, de-wormed, and then introduced into the main setup.


De-worming medications can be very hard on the fish, something that is unnecessary unless their is a problem...



How long has this tank been setup for? I remember that I had quite a few problems with my tank after I first set it up. Everything was fine for a good 2 months, then fish started getting sick with all types of disease... Finally, almost a 7 months and 3 fish later, my tank is finally balancing out, hopefully it will stay this way (knock on wood)...



I think you should be able to tell if your fish are suffering from oxygen deficiency. Bobbing on the top of the water, gulping for air, being lethargic, etc... I don't believe that to be the case...


How are you injecting C02?? If the tap and your tank are .5 difference could this be the root of the problem? When you add new water is the Ph fluctuating?

 

[cheesy feet]

10% dailys Joe, equivilant to 53% weekly

Colin, I feed frozen food regularly, but I personaly doubt that UV radiation works to sterilise it, and am sceptical about other methods, so worming may still be necissary. A number of discus keepers I know worm regularly and belive it essential. I know that some keepers don't bother though, so don't realy know how necissary it is...

As others have said I really wouldn't worm all the time unless you are adding new/wild fish.
Mine were tank bred, and as far as I know, havn't been wormed.And in the 2 1/2 years i've had them they have never got worms, or any disease, and they have had a few new tank mates over the years.They were bought from a breeder who kept his discus on one big system.
I have had bad experiences with live bloodworm in the passed, even after draining the water, stopped using it now.
As said discus do need a mature tank...But I think you've had yours running for some time now?

 

[rabbut]

Tank has been going since just before xmas, so about 3-4months...mebe this is the issue.

The tap water pH is 7, tank 6.5. There is an in-line reactor injecting the CO2, and replacement water is added to the inlet, to try to reduce fluctuations, but I have never tested directly before and after a waterchange so don't realy know if it fluctuates. I will test pH before and after the next water change.

Thanks for the ideas so far
Rabbut

 

[angelmouse]

Hi rabbut, my tank parameters are pretty much the same as yours , in my filter i have ceramic rings, the gravel like bio media,foam and floss. i also run a uv off the filter which i thinks has kept my tank in good health. i use Co2 but notice if areation is bad, fish do not look as happy.
I only worm if fish aren't well and if i get new fish, alot of people do it monthly and say it helps fish keep in good condition, but i don't think it is necesary. i use wormer plus.
2 or 3 slightly larger weekly waters might be better, worth a try.
i only use blood once or twice a week, tetra pima is main diet and has kept my fish heathy, with beefheart, earthworm/beefheart flakes, freeze dried brine shrimp and freeze dried tubifed worms being feed to vary diet.
I can't see that you are doing anything wrong, water is usally the issue with bad health , what is your water like, do you mix tap/ro or add dechlorinators
Only real problems i've had have been when i've been overstocked or had a bully in tank
regards Angel

 

[rabbut]

Angel, I a going to do weekly waterchanges of 30% for a while, running carbon in the filter to remove disolved organics, so mebe this will ease things off a bit. Thanks for the input on the UV, as I have had conflicting opinions on these. I used strait de-chlored tap water for mine, and most of the tank stats are as the water comes from the tap I have a wonderful water supply from a fishkeepers prospective. Fairly low harness though so sometimes a little too easy to swing the pH, but I have not noted any fluctuations as yet...

I have added an extra circulation pump with venturi, and swapped one lot of sponge out for carbon and floss. Next week I'll swap another for some ceramic rings, leaving two sponge boxes and a course pre-foam in the filter. I have also tryed to dose the different wormer, but I think the fish can smell it They race at the food, get near and then turn their noses up It's their usual diet that is medicated too, and they eat when the food isn't medicated. They deffinately aren't as daft as people think

Thanks all so far
Rabbut