What Am I Doing Wrong?

[Akasha72]

For a good few weeks now I've been nurturing a baby panda cory. He/she was the only survivor of 6 cories that hatched in September. Up until today he was doing really well and then this morning I found him dead. I was pretty upset, I still am.
 
I've been getting rather a lot of cory eggs just lately, all layed during the night and so it's been a bit of a game on my other thread http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/438775-place-your-bets/to guess who the parents are. We've been having a bit of fun but now the stuffing has been knocked out of me and it's no longer fun.
 
 
So onto some information. I have a 18" clearseal tank that holds around 25-30 litres. I have seperated this tank into two compartments with a glass pane that has been siliconed in. One side is larger than the other. I've been using the smaller side to hold the eggs and the larger side for the growing cory and a tetra fry I found hiding in the plants of my main tank.
The small side is bare bottomed with a couple of oak leaves thrown in and it contains a sponge filter. The larger side has a thin layer of sand substrate. There's a moss ball in there and a clumps of java moss too. There's some small anubias cuttings weighted down with plant weights and another sponge filter. Both of the sponge filters are cycled for fry. There's also some more oak leaves in the larger side too.
 
I'm water changing once a week,changing about 50% - 75% (difficult to judge with such a small tank)
 
There is no light unit in this tank and the heater to attached to the glass pane so both sides of the tank get heat. The temp is set to 25.
 
 
Now, I've bred cories before a good few years ago when my peppered cories were young and in full breeding mode. I've taken a lot of peppered cories to my lfs over the years so it's not like this is my first attempt at breeding cories.
 
So, here's what is happening. I'm getting the eggs, the eggs are hatching (although not all of them but that's to be expected) but the fry are dying within 24 - 48 hours of hatching. Once they are hatched I'm adding liquifry to the water twice a day. 
 
For the larger fry that I lost today I was adding finely crushed flake to the water twice a day. I did try adding a cory pellet that my adults eat two or three times but I ended up having to remove it as it was just ignored by the baby cory. 
 
I really don't know where I'm going wrong or what more I can do. I'm now faced with a choice of giving up on my attempts to breed or to try again next time I discover eggs but if I'm to try again I can't being doing it just to watch them die. I need to know where the problem is and why they are dying. So here I am throwing it open in the hope someone can see something I can't.
 
 
Please be gentle with me. I'm still incredibly upset about this mornings death 

 

[Baccus]

The set up sounds fine for the corys, the only thing that potentially springs to mind is a bacterial infection (or similar) from the sand substrate. Although that doesn't seem all that likely because I have plenty of cory fry surviving in my main tank with sand substrate.
 
Because I know you especially want some panda fry, have you tried saving the eggs in a net fry saver and keeping that suspended in the main tank? I have found setting up such a net near the filter return (I use HOBs on almost all my tanks) works a treat especially if I add some java moss prior to the eggs hatching. The fry end up having all the micro foods they need right there and then. I find the net also lets me target feed to a degree for the fry.
 
Actually the only other option I could think of that might be killing the fry is the water changes, there might be pH or gH swings especially in a small tank that is more than they can bare. I only suggest this since I have found cory fry living it up in a canister filter, and the only thing that was going for them in that environment was stable water parameters and plenty of mulm and general gunk to pick through for micro foods. Actually that brings me to the next possible, even with prepared foods being offered maybe the cory fry just aren't finding enough of the "right" food and are starving to death. I know usually mulm is the stuff that everyone is desperate to remove from their tanks BUT believe me it has its uses. In my native shrimp tank that also has breeding Spotted Blue Eyes, this tank is left largely on its own with just weekly water changes using aged water  and no substrate cleaning or siphoning. The native shrimp are thriving in this tank and breeding up a storm. Just last night I spied berried Darwin Red Nose, Berried Darwin Algae Eaters and Berried Chameleon Shrimp, and there is already plenty of other shrimplets already getting about in the tank, just too small/ young yet to identify which species they are.

 

[Byron]

I probably can't offer much, but I have a couple ideas.
 
I concur with having a sand substrate once the eggs hatch.  I am not convinced that bare bottom tanks are healthier, but perhaps the opposite.  With a sand substate, even a very thin layer, you are providing a huge surface area for bacteria to grow, and this bacteria breaks down the organics (fish waste).  All fish have a substrate in their habitats, be it sand, mud, leaves or gravel/rock, it seems preferable.  And Baccus' comment on mulm is certainly pertinent, in my view.  I use the vacuum over the sand along the front half of this tank, but the back is never touched and not surprisingly perhaps, that is where the corys tend to spend most of their time.
 
My second idea is to increase the dry leaves.  In my 10g, which has Corydoras pygmeus spawning and growing up (all together), I keep it full of oak leaves.  I add 2-4 every week during the partial water change, tucked in behind the moss at one end so they can get waterlogged, and then the next week I move them to the substrate (which is play sand) and add 2-4 more on the side to repeat the process.  I provide no other food for the fry.  I add regular sinking foods, being shrimp pellets, Omega One Veggie Rounds, and Nutrafin Tabs, alternate days.  I know the youngsters feed on these as I have seen them, when they are a few weeks old, not newly-hatched.  I don't have a lot of corys, so presumably not all the eggs hatch into fry that survive.  But my point is that these foods seem to be sufficient.  The prepared foods are not always eaten completely, so I don't add too many.  The tank is also full of Malaysian Livebearing snails and pond snails, probably because they find lots to eat.
 
Moving the eggs from the spawning tank into their own tank is sometimes problematic, as differing water chemistry can affect them.  However, if they are hatching, I guess this is not pertinent.
 
Byron.

 

[Akasha72]

thanks Baccus, I guess I really needed to hear something down those lines. I've felt dreadful all day ... I feel like I've killed the lil guy on purpose. I spoke to my Dad about it - he's a fish keeper of 40 years plus - and he thinks it was lack of food that killed it. It would seem getting these lil guys to eat is a real problem. They either die days after absorbing their yolk sack or in this case at a larger size when they are needing more food.
 
When I bred my curvicep cichlids I threw a used piece of fine filter wool in with them that was brown with slimy gunk. Perhaps I need to do this with the cories too

Thanks Byron, you replied as I was replying to Baccus.
 
I am now leaning towards the lack of enough food being the issue here, especially given the replies. Now you've said about the substrate I'll clean out the smaller side tomorrow (make sure the missing newly hatched cory really has passed on) and add some sand in there too. I'll also increase the leaves. I've added 3 of these alder cones to the fry tank today to see how it affects the water and as there's only one baby tetra in there now I was willing to take a chance.
 
I'll also start using water from the main tank when I water change - see if that makes a difference

 

[Byron]

I might be careful with the alder cones.  These seem to lower pH rather rapidly, from the other thread, at least more than the leaves.  My thinking here is that with eggs and fry it might be better keeping things more stable?  Just thinking here, not suggesting anything.  The leaves provide food as infusoria; the cones do not, so far as I know, though being natural I suppose they might somehow.
 
On the water change, this is a good plan with eggs, but once you have fry I would use fresh water.  Remember, the water being removed from the main tank is loaded with stuff you want to get rid of, so no point moving all these pheromones, tds, ammonia (possibly), and other stuff into the fry tank.
 
Hope I'm offering some help, or things to consider anyway.
 
Byron.

 

[Baccus]

As Byron said I would not necessarily use the water from the main tank to do water changes in the fry tank, especially if the fry never hatched in the main tank and therefore are not accustomed to its parameters. Instead I would look at pre-aging some water for the fry tank. I pre-age water by putting the water in a tub with the chlorine/ chloramine remover and add an airstone to bubble away and disperse through the water. Ideally the water should age for at least a week outdoors in the sun, but I have had some success with aging the water for at least a day for my native tank. If I leave water laying around the yard/ car shed any longer than that and the cats and dog all think they have a new water bowl and drink all my hard earned aged water.
 
If you can get some old filter wool that has been used in your tank,  I would use that with the fry. I know anytime I chuck the filter wool part of the filter media in any of my tanks all the fish go NUTS picking over it, even the shrimp will come and give it a good picking over.

 

[Far_King]

I'm really sorry to hear about the baby cory Akasha.

 

[Akasha72]

thanks for the replies - more to think about - and thanks for the condolences Far_King ... he was making me smile and I'm missing seeing him darting about 
 
I did stop and think about using water from the main tank after I'd posted. As said, it'll be full of stuff including Nitrates and that won't be good for fry and so now I'm wondering about doing smaller water changes more often using clean, dechlorinated water.
 
I'm now waiting for another low pressure system to blow through and mix it with a large water change in the hope it's get the cories spawning again

 

[gmc1]

You will succeed soon akasha.you are gaining knowledge about it all the time.look how much you know now from when you started your first tank.hang in there.

 

[Akasha72]

thanks gmc ... I'll keep you all posted

 

[eaglesaquarium]

In a situation like this, I have to turn to what I've read from Ian Fuller... well known coryologist.
 
http/www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworld/shanesworld.php?article_id=312




http/www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8726 
He suggests a small plastic container in the main tank, and that all water changes include water FROM THE MAIN TANK. 

3. How do I hatch them?
There are several ways to consolidate a spawning, but it is spawnings in community aquaria that initiate the most requests for help. The easiest only requires a small shallow, 1.5 litre plastic container, something like a sandwich box is ideal, and an air stone. The container is three quarters filled with water and floated on the surface of the main aquarium, the eggs can be removed from the aquarium sides with the aid of a clean razor blade and put into the container, where eggs have been placed on plant leaves the leaves can be cut from the plant and placed into the container. The air stone ensures that the water is both fully oxygenated continually moving, which helps to prevent damaging particles from settling on and contaminating the eggs. At this stage one or two drops of a propriety anti fungal preparation added to the water in the container can also help to prevent fungal spores from attacking the eggs. If medication were used then I would recommend that 50% water changes be made to the container each day for the first three days. Use replacement water from the main aquarium, this will dilute the medication in the container, so that by the time the fry hatch the water will be the same as the main aquarium

4. How do I raise the fry?
There is no need to feed the new fry for the first two or three days, as during this time they will draw nourishment from their yolk sac. When the yolk sac has been used up the fry are then classed as free swimming and will be actively looking for food. There are several foods that can be offered to give the fry a good start, the first of these that I use is Micro-worm followed by newly hatched brine shrimp and then after two days I start to introduce pre-soaked powdered flake food alternating between the two live foods. Once a feeding program has started it is very important to maintain good water conditions and to this end I would recommend daily 50% water changes, or even better twice daily, taking the new water from the main aquarium. The fry can be raised comfortably in this way for about a month when they should be large enough to fend for them selves in the main tank, of course this will depend on the size of the spawning and the number of fry hatched. Larger numbers of fry would be better raised in their own tank where they will have more space.

 

[Akasha72]

Brilliant Eagles ... a great read. I learned that I've been getting most of it right it's just the feeding side of things where I'm failing. Now where the heck do I get 'microworms' I've never even heard of them!
 
Cyclops I can get frozen from the lfs so that's not a problem. 
 
Hmm ... I shall start the hunt for 'microworms' and if anyone from the U.K know's where I can get it then all the better ... just reply and let me know!

 

[Baccus]

Some online pet shops sell microworms and I think I have even seen them on places like ebay. From memory you need to have a few colonies on the go at once.

Just some info on them.
http/www.livefishfoodshop.com/shop_microworms.html

 

[Essjay]

Ebay is where I've always got my microworms. While waiting for the starter culture to arrive, get a few cheap plastic tubs, sand the insides to make them rough and stab some airholes in the lids. You'll also need a box of instant porridge (the cheap own-brands are good enough) and some dried yeast. You won't need much of that but it keeps well in the freezer for the next batch. You just need to make about half an inch of instant porridge and when it cools, sprinkle the yeast on top. When the starter culture arrives, put it on top of the porridge and keep the tub somewhere warmish - I put mine on the tank lid. The culture is ready for harvesting when you can see the worms climbing the sides of the tub - that's why you sand the tub, to make it easier for the worms to climb. Carefully remove a few (some people use artists paintbrushes) being very careful not to pick up any porridge.
You will need to start a new culture before the old one goes sour using a spoonful of the old culture to seed the new one. When I used microworms I started a new one every week. You'll know by the smell when to get rid of a culture.
 
 
Edit to add - the female cockatoo apisto in my avatar was raised on microworms.

 

[Akasha72]

ahh there one of those things that you have to culture yourself ... I havn't got the space nor the time for that. Oh well. I'll have to stick to the frozen cyclops
 
I noticed earlier that I had a male panda doing his dance around a female. She was ignoring him though. I've emptied the smaller side of the fry tank, cleaned the bottom and added a thin layer of sand. I put the sponge filter back and added 4 new oak leaves. I'm also considering adding a drop of liquifry every day until the next spawn. I'm thinking if I prepare the tank for fry they will have a better chance from the start

thanks essjay you replied while I typing ... it is something I'm going to consider but right now I'm not sure I've got the time and space to be culturing worms.