Water permanently cloudy and fish skittish?

[Killerbro511]

So for context I have had this tank set up for at least 4 years and at some point a while ago I stopped gravel vacuuming because i felt it was kind of uneeded with how heavily planted the tank was. The water has always had a yellowish tint that I never have been able to remove and my LFS and I think its due to high sulphates in my tap water.

So cut to a few weeks ago I decided to buy some more corys and glowlights for my tank and decided itd be a good idea to do a water change before acclimating them and I ended up gravel vaccing a little portion of the tank however little did I know that itd cause a massive headache. There was what I believed to be a natural bacteria bloom after the addition of the extra livestock however after that usual white cloudiness dissipated a permanent darker haze was established. I reckon its due to fine gunk from the substrate being constantly in the water column however I thought after ive done atleast 5 water changes and constant filter media cleaning to remove the excess gunk itd improve but apparently not so im really in need of ideas on how to fix this without having to reset everything. I have thought about trying to vac every last bit of the substrate until none of the gunk remains but whenever I do that it seems to have little to no effect.

I post this in the emergency forum because since this started, one of my glow lights and one of my oldest corydoras dies and the kuhlis I also have in here seem to glass surf a lot more than usual (opposed to the typical hiding) so I'm concerned about how much longer things can remain like this without a massive die off. I also have no way to test my water but after the amount of water changes ive done in the last few weeks (40% per) I doubt ammonia or nitrates are a problem.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Naughts]

What substrate do you have?

 

[Killerbro511]

What substrate do you have?

ada aqua soil im pretty sure

 

[Naughts]

I haven’t use aqua soil but I don’t think it should be cleaned, for the reason you explained about the fine particles in the water column.

Keep doing the frequent large water changes. It may be that your new fish have introduced a pathogen so the water changes will dilute this and help the fish fight it off.

You might try carbon in the filter for the yellowing if it is still present but the water changes should have negated that.

I would cut a cheap sheet of filter floss at the end of the filter chamber and replace it every couple of days until the water is clearer. Then I would use the more expensive PolyFilter pad to maintain it.

I suspect you weren’t doing weekly water changes so advise this going forward.

 

[seangee]

If you have not been doing regular water changes keep going gradually - continue with a few more 40% changes within a few days of each other to gradually bring your tank water closer to the tap water. Then you can do large changes (75%).
As for the substrate don't try a deep clean yet. If its been largely untouched you could cause a major issue by disturbing it (enough to kill all your fish I'm afraid).
Once you are able to do large water changes clean a small section at a time (like 10% of the tank) and immediately do a large water change.

This will all take several weeks but FWIW the tank is not heavily planted and none of your plants need aqua soil - all the plants you have get their nutrients via the leaves. It may be worth taking the fish out of the tank for a few hours and re-doing the tank using inert river sand or play sand while keeping the filter alive. Substrate should be no more than a couple of cms deep. If you need advice on this ask, plenty of knowlege on the forum.

 

[MaloK]

That sounds like Old Tank Syndrome.

If you can test the water for PH and KH ? Low KH and high acidity can stall the beneficial bacteria and promote the development of undesirable ones.

Also your thickness of substrate is pretty deep, If your water already has high phosphate it can become OTS fuel.

Glass surfing is a sign of stress cause by water conditions that are not acceptable. Not larger water changes should be done atm but more often twice or even trice. But don't go too fast because it's going to be dangerous for your older fishes.

Slow but steady, bring the parameters in your tank to the same as your source... if you vacuum the substrate make sure the disturbed water completely exits the tank before moving. take your time and keep disruption at the lowest possible.

Repeat until balance comes back, then you will be able to do much larger changes.

For the time being I would also suggest using a large amount of activated carbon to put all chances of removing the maximum of dissolve organic compounds and many toxins on your side. it's not a OTS cure, but it sure help a lot. With a very fine mechanical filtration media maintained on daily basis.

You might need to persist more than a month to bring nutrients in the tank to a sane level. You can also cut back on food during this period to help some more.

Make sure you have strong aeration too. The fish should stop surfing the glasses as conditions gets better.

It can take 10-20 sustained water changes to tilt the balance back in place on some setups. Patience and determination.

But overall it's a lot more easy to do and is a lot less stressful than a complete reset.

 

[seangee]

What @MaloK said.
The reason I suggested replacing the substrate is its not doing any good and I agree that its too deep.
The best way to avoid OTS is to never get it, and the easiest way to do that is with regular substantial water changes. Once you get to a stable state its easy to avoid the problem recurring further down the road.

 

[Killerbro511]

What @MaloK said.
The reason I suggested replacing the substrate is its not doing any good and I agree that its too deep.
The best way to avoid OTS is to never get it, and the easiest way to do that is with regular substantial water changes. Once you get to a stable state its easy to avoid the problem recurring further down the road.

yeah the substrate kinda just got deeper over the years as i rescaped it a few times because plants never seem to be in my favour and the incline that i set flattened out. I'll keep a change of substrate in mind but as Malok said i'll keep it as very last resort due to the pain that will cause.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Killerbro511]

That sounds like Old Tank Syndrome.

If you can test the water for PH and KH ? Low KH and high acidity can stall the beneficial bacteria and promote the development of undesirable ones.

Also your thickness of substrate is pretty deep, If your water already has high phosphate it can become OTS fuel.

Glass surfing is a sign of stress cause by water conditions that are not acceptable. Not larger water changes should be done atm but more often twice or even trice. But don't go too fast because it's going to be dngerous for your older fishes.

Slow but steady, bring the parameters in your tank to the same as your source... if you vacuum the substrate make sure the disturbed water completely exits the tank before moving. take your time and keep disruption at the lowest possible.

Repeat until balance comes back, then you will be able to do much larger changes.

For the time being I would also suggest using a large amount of activated carbon to put all chances of removing the maximum of dissolve organic compounds and many toxins on your side. it's not a OTS cure, but it sure help a lot. With a very fine mechanical filtration media maintained on daily basis.

You might need to persist more than a month to bring nutrients in the tank to a sane level. You can also cut back on food during this period to help some more.

Make sure you have strong aeration too. The fish should stop surfing the glasses as conditions gets better.

It can take 10-20 sustained water changes to tilt the balance back in place on some setups. Patience and determination.

But overall it's a lot more easy to do and is a lot less stressful than a complete reset.

When you are reffering to old tank syndrome are you talking about the yellowish tint or the cloudiness? Ill head to my lfs and get some more carbon as soon as i can but im not sure if that will clear the the actual particles causing the haze? Do you reckon its just a matter of continuously doing water changes until all loose bits within the substrate have been released? As i only have a hang on back filter that doesn't overly accommodate for any extra mechanical filtration more than the sponge i already have in there. I'm cleaning off all the gunk it picks up although it isn't really making a difference.

I think I do have some stuff that reduces phosphate levels though i cant remember what its called (little white ball things) that i will start using again is it fine to use it in conjuction with the carbon?

Thanks for the help!

 

[Killerbro511]

When you are reffering to old tank syndrome are you talking about the yellowish tint or the cloudiness? Ill head to my lfs and get some more carbon as soon as i can but im not sure if that will clear the the actual particles causing the haze? Do you reckon its just a matter of continuously doing water changes until all loose bits within the substrate have been released? As i only have a hang on back filter that doesn't overly accommodate for any extra mechanical filtration more than the sponge i already have in there. I'm cleaning off all the gunk it picks up although it isn't really making a difference.

I think I do have some stuff that reduces phosphate levels though i cant remember what its called (little white ball things) that i will start using again is it fine to use it in conjuction with the carbon?

Thanks for the help!

its phosguard that i have

 

[Killerbro511]

That sounds like Old Tank Syndrome.

If you can test the water for PH and KH ? Low KH and high acidity can stall the beneficial bacteria and promote the development of undesirable ones.

Also your thickness of substrate is pretty deep, If your water already has high phosphate it can become OTS fuel.

Glass surfing is a sign of stress cause by water conditions that are not acceptable. Not larger water changes should be done atm but more often twice or even trice. But don't go too fast because it's going to be dangerous for your older fishes.

Slow but steady, bring the parameters in your tank to the same as your source... if you vacuum the substrate make sure the disturbed water completely exits the tank before moving. take your time and keep disruption at the lowest possible.

Repeat until balance comes back, then you will be able to do much larger changes.

For the time being I would also suggest using a large amount of activated carbon to put all chances of removing the maximum of dissolve organic compounds and many toxins on your side. it's not a OTS cure, but it sure help a lot. With a very fine mechanical filtration media maintained on daily basis.

You might need to persist more than a month to bring nutrients in the tank to a sane level. You can also cut back on food during this period to help some more.

Make sure you have strong aeration too. The fish should stop surfing the glasses as conditions gets better.

It can take 10-20 sustained water changes to tilt the balance back in place on some setups. Patience and determination.

But overall it's a lot more easy to do and is a lot less stressful than a complete reset.

got water tested and both ph and gh/kh were in normal levels however there was a small amount of ammonia and nitrate present so probs was a small crash because of it. Bought some more carbon and will start using it with phosguard. I got a tub of the fluval carbon but it doesnt say dose levels so do I just eyeball it? My tank is 80l for the record

 

[GaryE]

Old tank syndrome is one of the few situations where a tank actually mimics nature in how it works. It's eutrophication, the process by which a shallow lake becomes a meadow. In time, a tank can silt up. It doesn't mean the water will be problematic, but it does mean there is a lot in the water, clouding it, consuming oxygen and in a tank, killing fish that can't just swim off elsewhere.

From the 1960s to the 1980s, the hobby went through what I'll call the balanced aquarium phase, where we thought water changes weren't good if we had the right mix of plants, fish and other life. Some people, like Dr Diana Walstad, approached the questions with research and a rigourous method, but most people just winged it and skipped all the necessary scientific details. Things got a bit mystical in the minds of many, and the resulting methods still linger and are making a comeback with a couple of old internet gurus who never learned on.

We really knew old tank syndrome back then, and what you describe was pretty common. The next stage after fish dying and cloudy water was the swamp smell. Those were the days when activated carbon was considered necessary. If we had had the internet, your tank's issue would have been a constant hot topic.

So if you throw yourself back in time, and imagine yourself in bellbottoms with wild hair, you would have been advised to remove the fish, remove the substrate and either rinse the bejeebers out of it or replace it. If you imagine yourself in straight legged pants and short multicoloured hair, by then you would have been advised to do the same, but to gravel vacuum open areas a couple of times a year, and to do regular water changes. By 2025, we've stuck with the latter approach, as you can prevent old tank syndrome.

But it won't go away, and halfway measures will get you.

 

[seangee]

So if you throw yourself back in time, and imagine yourself in bellbottoms with wild hair,

Don't know about everywhere else but plenty in London today fitting that description. Of course its a trend I won't be following cos I no longer have the neccessary resources

 

[GaryE]

Don't know about everywhere else but plenty in London today fitting that description. Of course its a trend I won't be following cos I no longer have the neccessary resources

Not to derail the thread, but I lived in London in 1979. My foreman had very stringy yellow blonde hair he wore well past his shoulders, but it only grew in a fringe maybe two inches above his ears. He had a dome worthy of Christopher Wren. So we probably could still find seats on the fashion bandwagon.

 

[MaloK]

got water tested and both ph and gh/kh were in normal levels however there was a small amount of ammonia and nitrate present so probs was a small crash because of it. Bought some more carbon and will start using it with phosguard. I got a tub of the fluval carbon but it doesnt say dose levels so do I just eyeball it? My tank is 80l for the record

Pack as much carbon as you can without risking overflowing the filter. do your diligent water changes. vacuum by sections.

I differ from Gary on that point. OTS is perfectly reversible as long as it doesn't reach swamp level. And adequate measures are taken to reduce all forms of nutrients to a low level. And maintained afterward.

Carbon will not help with phosphorus and if the fish where good for the last years, I doubt it's the cause but it can participate. it's the other building compounds that creates your new haze that are targeted. those are byproducts of solid and chemical waste dissolved. Bacteria multiply from this food, consume all oxygen, make beneficial bacteria die ammonia rise follows, fish start to panic. Removing this compound is key.

Also I agree that your could remove some substrate to lower that to 1-1/2 inch. These soils are very rich in nutrients and when not consumed or rinsed with water changes they build up in the substrates and emanation of concentrated nutrients can occur when it gets disrupted.