Water Changes

...chloramie 'merges' with ammonia to be used by the bacteria...

I'd really like to see some proof of this statement. My understanding is that chloramine is a very stable compund, and if it was in your tank, it will get taken up by the filter, and then start killing off that bacteria. chloramine is becoming more and more popular because it is so stable. Stablitiy also taking on the meaning here that it is not very reactive with other chemicals, so I don't think that the chances are very high that is merges with additional ammonia. That, and several forum members, when their chloramine using water companies accidently used too much ammonia, so that all the chlorine reacted with ammonia before the ammonia was used up, registered ammonia in their tap water. If chloramine merged with additional ammonia, that ammonia would not have registered in their tests. So, if you could please cite a source for why you think that, I'd much appreciate it.
As far as I am aware there has been no research conducted into the effects of chloramine on filter becteria.

I do know of at least two people who stopped using de-chlor on another forum, one who had chlorine treated tap water and the other was subject to chloramines. They both found that while the tap water contained 4-5ppm chlorine, after a water change (I seem to recall one even did a 50% water change) the level was 0.25 and within 5-10 minutes no trace of chlorine was found.

One of the theories put forward was that the chlrione gases off fairly quickly from the distrubance of being added to the tank and that the ammonia in chloramines may actually be available for the bacteria to break down, thus relleasing the chlorine to gas off. This would appear to be supported by the fact one of them found immature tanks where the colocny was not fully formed could take up to an hour to be copmletely chlorine free, but any over 6 months old would deal with it extremely quickly.

The tests were successful for a period of months with neither reporting deaths or a difference in the fishes' behaviour. The length of time makes me believe that any residual sodium thiosulphate in the water would have been dealing with the chlorine.
 
That is very interesting, I wonder if chloramine's stability is enhanced by being under pressure as well. That, and there are far, far, far more filter bacteria than the trace amounts of chloramines are added to treat. That is, it may also be that the chloramines get used up killing off what they can, and the older mature filters recover from this small 1-2%ish kill off very quickly. Or, it could be exactly as you said, the bacteria can take the ammonia off and then the chlroine dissipates on its own. I'm going to have to look into this further when I get the time.
 
I was wondering as I posted whether the chloramines do their job, but can only affect so much, hence the immature tank not coping so well to the lack of dechlor.

As I said, I am unaware of any research on chloramines and their effect on filter bacteria, which is a shame, though who would fund the research? The last thing the aqua-chemical companies want to do is destroy their prospects of sales by funding research that suggests their products are unnecessary.

If you find anything, I will be more than happy, just to find out one way or the other.
 
Well, a quick perusal of the scientific literature came up with some rather surprising results.

Firstly, and most surprising to me, the problem ammonia oxidizing bacteria (AOB) and nitrite oxidizing bacteria (NOB) growing in water utilities' facilities is becoming a somewhat serious issue. The chloramine does in fact, promote the growth of AOB and NOB, with the consequences -- written is a nice non-threatening way as -- "...the addition of chloramines can lead to biological instability in a drinking water distribution system by promoting the growth of nitrifying bacteria..." and "The resulting reduction in chloramine residual and development of a microbial community in the distribution system lead to water quality deterioration and violation of drinking water regulations." I think that I might very well have put a little more emphasis on violations of the drinking water regulations.

Basically, because the AOB and NOB grow, they excrete other organic compounds allowing other bacteria to grow. At the very minimum, this additional bacteria will require more chloramine to kill it off, but then, more chloramine promotes more growth of AOB and NOB, and I think you can see where this cycle is going... Here is the really bad news, with this extra growth, all that stuff we don't want in there could grow now, like the coliform bacteria (E. coli -- think spinach), and viruses, and Guardia lamblia and so on. All of these are pretty strictly required to be below certain levels by the U.S. EPA, and similarly in other countries.

Secondly, the really interesting part is that in lab test after lab test, the recommended exposure times and concentrations of chloramines do their jobs. The chloramines in the lab kill off all the organics, including the AOB and NOB. However, at the utility side of the issue, nitrification episodes are rather commonplace. One recent study found 63% of U.S. chloramining utilities and 64% of Southern Australian utilities tested positive for nitrifying bacteria.

One hypothesis for the discrepancy between the laboratory studies and operating results is that there are AOB strains
growing in full-scale systems that possess a greater chloramine resistance than those studied in the kinetic experiments. Whether the AOB strains used in earlier kinetic studies are representative of significant strains involved in full-scale nitrification episodes has not been confirmed, since there are no published evaluations of AOB diversity in chloraminated distribution systems.

This quote, and the above ones, from Regan, Harrington, and Noguera: "Ammonia- and Nitrite-Oxidizing Bacterial Communities in a Pilot-Scale Chloraminated Drinking Water Distribution System" Applied and Enviromental Microbiology 2002. The study where the %'s came from was Wolfe et al. "Occurrence of nitrification in chloranimated distribution systems" Journal (American Water Works Association), 1996

In other words, the strains that are in the water utilities have become more resistant to chloramines, and can indeed use the ammonia present as sustenance.

And, back to fishtanks, where do the AOB and NOB come from in the first place? Well, if you used tap water, they probably came from your water utility, and if a resistant strain has grown there... that same chloramine resistant strain is probably now growing in your tank too. The Regan et al. study cited above and Regan et al. "Diversity of nitrifying bacteria in full-scale cloranimated distribution systems" Water Research, 2003, was among the first to use DNA sequencing to distinguish all the different AOB and NOB that are growing. Some of the names should be pretty familiar: AOBs Nitrosospira, Nm. oligotropha and NOBs Nitrospira, Nitrobacter

So, it seems that AOB and so on can become resistant, or at the very least, as mentioned in the above posts, the chloramine levels are certainly not designed to sterilize a colony of bacteria as large in number as we culture in our tanks and so chloraminated water probably is not going to ruin a fishtank.

All that said, I think I am still going to continue to use my conditioner. It is pretty cheap, and better safe than sorry. However, I am not going to fret if I forget, or if a water change is due up and I haven't been to the LFS lately to get a new bottle.

Oh, and of course, I will now be nice and worried about our water supply.
 
i just add straight tap water.i run it in to a bucket and add straight to the tank.ive done this for approx 7 months with no ill effects as of yet.ive had the odd fish die,but,no different than if i added dechlor.plenty of water changes and decent filtration is far more important in my opinion.i live in the southwest by the way.
 
I know this is an old post , but here goes , 

1 i use a 15 Litre top bucket , that I stand on top of my hood , i fill that , and dechlorinate that accordingly 
2. i start back syphoning this in to the tank directly on top of the filter or pressed against the side wall , so i get a dispersion pattern 
3. if more refill is needed , i use my 8 L bucket (us pale )  to warm and dechlorinate more water and then tip in to the top sump and syphoning continues seamlessly 
 

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