Viability Of My 36gal Apistogramma Idea?

[thefirethief]

Hi folk, Ive read quite a few articles on the population density of Apistogramma in the wild and how some people have re-created this succesfully in the aquarium, so I was thinking of having a go at this. The tanks dimensions are 32L x 14BX 18H.

Id plan to have a peat/soil substrate and planted heavily with Anubias, Cryptos, Pennywort and a blanket of floating duckweed. Hopefully emergent plants will help with the high bio-load and keep the water quality managable. The tank would be low light (just over 1WPG) and have a thick layer of indian almond or oak leaf litter which I could change weekly if I could source a local supply. Ive got some nice pieces of bogwood kicking around too and would create plenty of hiding places with clay pots. Hopefully the substrate, leaves and bogwood would be enough to lower the PH and re-create the blackwater environment to show standards, breeding not really a concern just now.

Stocking, Im unsure about. Im aware that too few fish might not spread aggression enough, thus defeating the point of the tank. The Apistogramma Ive had in mind have been Viejita (if I can find them). Ive read they are among the more peaceful and Ive made a completely uninformed stocking guess at 8-10 males and 15 - 20 females. Ive had experience with keeping a few Apistogramma Agassizi before, but I know this wont be quite the same.

My other option is 2 x 20Gal tanks. One housing an Apistogramma pair that I could try breed and the other housing Lamprologus Brevis (shell dwellers). Both I think would be interesting but I think my 36Gal Apistogramma community would be great fun.



So what do you think? What else would I need to do to make this happen? Any input would be fantastic, even if its just to tell me that this type of setup is best left for the experts.

ta!
Mark

 

[Waterbox]

Sorry I don't have too much advice for you, but it sounds like an awesome idea to me. I am trying to do something along the same lines, But I think I am going to mix multiple species instead. I already have 4 German Blue Rams, and in a few weeks I will be adding a group of some Apistos if I can find any. The only thing that I can see might go wrong, is that the tank might be a little short for all those fish but I have never kept Apisto so I am not too sure.

If you could find some of those shelldwellers that would be cool too. Ive been looking for some Multifasciatus for my 10 gallon but nobody has them in my area so I think Im just going to keep some Dwarf Puffers. Anyways, I would like to hear how youre project goes

 

[thefirethief]

Sounds good waterbox. Ive kept Rams with Apistos before with no issues although Ive heard from plenty of people who would say its a definate no no. What size of group do you think you will add?

Where abouts is it you stay? If you are in the UK then you could use trimar.co.uk for your shelldwellers. They have a few different species and send by courier.

Anyone got any thoughts on my idea?

Mark

 

[tomsteer]

I'm no expert with Apistos, only had a few in the few years I’ve been keeping fish.

I like the sound of your idea but I think the stocking levels are a little ambitious. From what I remember reading about apistos, females will find a suitable cave and defend a territory around it, these small territories should be around 1 square foot. I know that keeping larger groups is a good way of reducing aggression but I would say you would be better with 1 male and 3 females, 5 or 6 small caves and lots of plants (as your planning).

I know that you are not too worried about breeding, with the setup I suggest you would get fry definitely but you would also see the courting rituals and fancy displays that you wouldn’t see with the stocking levels you are thinking of.

I hope I haven’t dampened your spirits, but personally I would think that this would be the best way of seeing natural apisto behaviour.

I may be wrong,

Tom

 

[thefirethief]

Hi Tom, I understand what you are saying and are probably right. Thats exactly how I intended to set up my 20Gal with either a pair or a harem, depending on species, and a few pencilfish as dithers. I spent all my free time reading aquarium articles and any apisto stuff Ive read is exactly what you have said, however, the article which really caught my attention was this one from cichlid-forum.com.

A few bits from it....


'Dr. Uwe Romer has found by studying apisto populations in the wild, that these little fish live in a fairly crowded environment. Perhaps as many as a thousand fish in an area of nine square meters, with leaf litter up to one meter thick on the bottom....'


'Lastly, you will see the fish act in a way that more closely resembles their behavior in the wild. As an example, I have had as many as 135 A. juruensis living in a 20 gallon aquarium and around 700 A. cacatuoides in a 150 gallon tank!'



Now that level of stocking seems to make for a really high maintainence tank and would be completely beyond me, but with my own stocking levels I think it could be managable, and would certainly make for some interesting viewing.

Mark

 

[Waterbox]

That reminds me of something I read.

Most of the articles I have read say to keep Apistos in pairs or harems, but I remember one saying that they prefer to be kept in 'colonies'. I believe it was talking about Cockatoo apistos, but I dont really remember.

I think you should go ahead and get a larger number, but don't start with as much as 30 fish. Start with 9 maybe? Then see if they can establish their own 'colony' in your tank. That would be cool.

No Mark I don't live in the UK, but I would get some fish online but getting low quality fish or dead fish seems like a risk of having alot of trouble. I can't wait till m LFS get some shelldwellers in though.

 

[thefirethief]

A LFS near here has a tank with about 15 cockatoo apistos and there seems to be no trouble at all so that sounds about right waterbox. I chose a high stocking level because Id hope to spread out any aggression. About a year ago I bought 3 Apistogramma Agassizzi, thinking I was buying a male and 2 females. Turns out it was 3 males the guy had given me and one of them was so aggressive I had to remove it from the tank after about an hour. I'd really need to make sure I choose the species carefully. Im sure plenty of people on here will have a better idea than me.

 

[thefirethief]

Sorry folks, one and only 'bump'. Im desperate for some input from people who know their Apistogramma before I go ahead with this. Anyone?


Mark

 

[Griz]

I like the idea! I've done some reading on just what you are proposing to do, as I have always thought it would make a really interesting tank. I wish I had some links for you. People have in fact done this with success. I would do it pretty much the same way you have suggested except that I would alter the m/f ratio a bit. 1m:3f. Your number may be a bit optomistic and you will have to have a very densly planted tank an/or lots of leaves. Also, I would think that you will have to expect a few losses until the fish work things out. Therefore, I would try hard to find very young fish. That way they will have a better chance of growing up together in those conditions and your inevitable losses won't be so expensive for you. Good luck and please keep us posted.

edit: Could you clarify the tank dimensions above ? It sounds much bigger than 36 gal. Is that Imperial gallons?

 

[thefirethief]

Thanks for the input Griz, definately encouraging to hear!

My tank size is 132L which is around 36US gal, which is actually only 29 Imperial Gallons if my calculations are correct. Id consider getting a slightly bigger tank but Id rather see what I can do with what Ive got.

The reason I chose such a high stocking density was because I was thinking along the same lines as Malawi Mbunas. Overstock to spread aggression. My biggest fear would be a dominant male confining the other fish to upper corners of the tank, I guess species choice will help make sure that doesnt happen. Do you think maybe 5 or 6 males and 15 females would seem more realistic? I like your idea about buying Juveniles, its something I had been considering. Ive got a few breeders in mind that I'll get in touch with soon to see about buying Juveniles, maybe buy stock from a few suppliers so that if any breeding does occur, it would reduce the change of in-breeding, although thats not a big concern for me just now.

My next dilema would be whether to add dithers or not? I absolutely adore pencilfish but I dont know if they would be worth the increased bioload, however small it would be. What do you think?

Mark

 

[thefirethief]

Just to let folk know, I've given up on this idea. I've had a mixed response and decided that its beyond me. For anyone who is interested, here's some information that swayed me towards a huge "no chance".

There are several falacies with the idea of high density apisto keeping:

1. Uwe Römer's studies were conducted primarily during the dry season when
many streams are drying out and all that are left are isolated pools filled
with damp leaves and little water. These are refuges for fish, someplace to
survive until better conditions arrive.

2. Food becomes scarce during the dry season, so fish are not in optimal
condition for breeding. The drying habitats definitely are not ideal
breeding environments.

3. The drying habitats definitely are not ideal breeding environments. As
such, almost no breeding occurs during the dry season and very few adult
fish survive this period. The dense populations of fish are only interested
in surviving, not in defending breeding territories. Little energy is
expended in territorial aggression. Apistos, like most small fish in the
Amazon, breed seasonally during the rainy season when water spreads out into
the surrounding 'flooded forest'. Now the area for suitable breeding
territories has not only increased by orders of magnitude, but food species
(insects & aquatic crustaceans) have exploded in numbers, and water quality
is improved markedly. The surviving young explode in size & maturity and are
ready to breed. Now they become territorial, but because the area available
for territories has increased, their population density has dropped
drasticly and territorial aggression probably is not very high.

Now, for David Soare's suggestion for high density keeping of apistos. It
works well if:

1. The fish are not sexually mature - as you would find in grow-out tanks.

2. There are enough breeding territories that are hidden from sight of
surrounding territories. For example, an aquarium filled almost to the top
with jumbled piles of PVC pipe or loose layers of leaf litter.

Even in such aquariums, sexually mature fish will want to breed (assuming
that the water quality is adequate) and these dense populations will lead to
levels of aggression that rarely occur in the wild. Mature fish will be
killed and fry mortality will also be high. The quantity of surviving fry
will be much higher in an artifical breeding situation where the male is
removed when the eggs/fry appear, and the female is removed once the fry
start to wander away from their mother. To prove this take 20 pairs of fish
from the same spawn of an 'easy to breed' apisto. Spawn 10 pairs
artificially in 10 smaller tanks. Take the other 10 pairs and put them in a
tank about 2x the volume of the others. After a year compare the number of
fry & the numbers of adult losses. You'll see which is more productive (and
actually more 'natural').



Anyway, thanks for showing an interest people. The input was appreciated!

Mark

 

[Waterbox]

Very interesting. It all makes sense to me. But I do not really agree that the fish being raised separately in their own breeding tanks and removing males is more natural. It seems to me that the reason most animals of any species have large amounts of young, or lay large amounts of eggs, like the hundreds that fish do, they are expecting a large number to die off. But of course I have not studied fish like Romer has

 

[thefirethief]

Yeah, we'll never be able to recreate anything close nature. I understand what you are saying but I guess the point is that in the wild the fry are able to escape predation from the parents, in a closed system this isn't always possible. Thats one way to look at it.