Venturing Into The Whole World Series Seven - <spring Sunrise>

[GWU]

How to prevent PH crash? I would say simply injet more CO2 to let it saturate, because the water cannot buffer any more. You may think that we can add some buffer to the water, but for our experience, the ADA soil will turn it back to very soft in a short period.

Another approach is change water more frequently, say 1/3 per every week at least. Actually the aqua store in Hong Kong change water everyday before they open, that also help to avoid alge prolification. If you imagine in real life, the aqua plant in nature, the water may have PH shock after rain, so the plant and fish will suit towards the water condition very soon. If you not offen change the water, but once you change it, the plant and fish is much more difficult to adapt the change.

What our strategy is pushing the plant grow and become strong so it can bear the heavy trim to shape when we scapping. If compare to the normal case of just planting for most of the aqua lover, you may think that it is more than normal for lighting, CO2 or even the frequency of water change.

 

[plantbrain]

It seems, a lot of people questioning why we injet so many CO2. May be I can explain a little bit, that is our experience of using ADA substrate, it turn the water to very soft, KH down to almost 0, and PH also below 6. As you may aware lower KH will cause low buffer to PH, if according to the relative table of PH to KH to measure the CO2 level, low KH and low PH of water will not easy to retain CO2, that why we have to injet more to compensate the loss.

Gary,

The water will contain the same CO2 ppm as any other water, the only difference is that you cannot measure using a buffer/acid and pH, if there is no buffer.........this is self evident.

Removal of the buffer only changes the pH movement via the acid(CO2).
It does not change the CO2 ppm itself nor any retention of a dissolved gas in the tank.

If you want to prove this to yourself, see the pH/KH/CO2 chart.

A KH of 1 and a pH of 6.0 has 30ppm
A KH of 10 and a pH of 7.0 has a pH of 30ppm.

If you remove the 1.0 KH from the water and maintain the same rate of CO2 bubbles and injection, you still have the same amount of dissolved gas since the rate of CO2 injection is the same.

You just cannot measure the CO2 ppm directly, but you can add a little baking soda and bump the KH to 1, get a reading, and then drop the KH with a RO water change/s back to zero or close to it.

Water will hold the same ppm of gas either way.
Your measurements for CO2 are likely based much more on experience and eyeballing the plant's responses, since you cannot measure the CO2 since you have little to no buffer, unless you do the indirect methods I suggested and raise the KH for a reading and then lower it back down.

Higher KH waters have more total carbon, but they have the exact same ppm of CO2 as softer water.
Measure the CO2 in a glass of tap water that's hard and one that's soft, they should have precisely the same CO2 ppm if they are at equilibrium with the air. Higher KH will increase the solubility of CO2.
But soft water, even very soft water should have little issue dissolving CO2 gas into solution.

Prove this to yourself.
You'll see why you do not inject any more CO2 in a soft water tank as a hard water tank.
You still add the same amount of gas, and the plants will use the same amount of CO2 gas as well.
That does not change even if you remove the KH or raise it. That just affects the solutibility, not delivery of CO2 to the plants.

If anything, the lowered solubility means that there will be more CO2 micro bubbles persisting..thus the plants can use the gas phase of CO2(which is at a much higher concentration when it comes into contact with the plant) vs the liquid [aq] phase(muc lower concentration ppnms and a slower flux into/out of the plant than a gas). But a plant in 0 KH and a plant in 5 KH should have the same CO2 demand if all else is equal.

If you feel the CO2 mist method is useful, then lower KH's will help.
Observations also suggest this.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[barrylamlam]

Gary,

The water will contain the same CO2 ppm as any other water, the only difference is that you cannot measure using a buffer/acid and pH, if there is no buffer.........this is self evident.

Removal of the buffer only changes the pH movement via the acid(CO2).
It does not change the CO2 ppm itself nor any retention of a dissolved gas in the tank.

If you want to prove this to yourself, see the pH/KH/CO2 chart.

A KH of 1 and a pH of 6.0 has 30ppm
A KH of 10 and a pH of 7.0 has a pH of 30ppm.

If you remove the 1.0 KH from the water and maintain the same rate of CO2 bubbles and injection, you still have the same amount of dissolved gas since the rate of CO2 injection is the same.

You just cannot measure the CO2 ppm directly, but you can add a little baking soda and bump the KH to 1, get a reading, and then drop the KH with a RO water change/s back to zero or close to it.

Water will hold the same ppm of gas either way.
Your measurements for CO2 are likely based much more on experience and eyeballing the plant's responses, since you cannot measure the CO2 since you have little to no buffer, unless you do the indirect methods I suggested and raise the KH for a reading and then lower it back down.

Higher KH waters have more total carbon, but they have the exact same ppm of CO2 as softer water.
Measure the CO2 in a glass of tap water that's hard and one that's soft, they should have precisely the same CO2 ppm if they are at equilibrium with the air. Higher KH will increase the solubility of CO2.
But soft water, even very soft water should have little issue dissolving CO2 gas into solution.

Prove this to yourself.
You'll see why you do not inject any more CO2 in a soft water tank as a hard water tank.
You still add the same amount of gas, and the plants will use the same amount of CO2 gas as well.
That does not change even if you remove the KH or raise it. That just affects the solutibility, not delivery of CO2 to the plants.

If anything, the lowered solubility means that there will be more CO2 micro bubbles persisting..thus the plants can use the gas phase of CO2(which is at a much higher concentration when it comes into contact with the plant) vs the liquid [aq] phase(muc lower concentration ppnms and a slower flux into/out of the plant than a gas). But a plant in 0 KH and a plant in 5 KH should have the same CO2 demand if all else is equal.

If you feel the CO2 mist method is useful, then lower KH's will help.
Observations also suggest this.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Thanks for your opinion! I think you are good in Chemistry and plant well too.
However, my hobby is aquascaping instead of Chemistry. I even don't have thermometer and pH meter in my tank! I also never take care about the kH .......all is my experience.
I just see that using large amount of CO2 can increase the growth of the plant and they look healthier.
I change 1/3 water of my tank twice a week, this is to dilute wasted ingredients and prevent the algae predication.

Sorry for my poor English and Chemistry.

Regards,
Barry

 

[craynerd]

Tom,

Could you explain what you meant by:


Removal of the buffer only changes the pH movement via the acid(CO2).

What do you mean by "thorugh (via) the acid ??"


I can then follow the rest of your argument through, you are basically saying that just because KH is lower the amount of dissolved CO2 will be the same,even when KH reaches 0? the only thing that is changing is the fact that you no longer have the factor of KH to use to calculate the CO2 concentration, however, if nothing has changed the CO2 concentration should be identical to what it was should the KH be readable


Regards
Chris

 

[plantbrain]

Gary,

The water will contain the same CO2 ppm as any other water, the only difference is that you cannot measure using a buffer/acid and pH, if there is no buffer.........this is self evident.

Removal of the buffer only changes the pH movement via the acid(CO2).
It does not change the CO2 ppm itself nor any retention of a dissolved gas in the tank.

If you want to prove this to yourself, see the pH/KH/CO2 chart.

A KH of 1 and a pH of 6.0 has 30ppm
A KH of 10 and a pH of 7.0 has a pH of 30ppm.

If you remove the 1.0 KH from the water and maintain the same rate of CO2 bubbles and injection, you still have the same amount of dissolved gas since the rate of CO2 injection is the same.

You just cannot measure the CO2 ppm directly, but you can add a little baking soda and bump the KH to 1, get a reading, and then drop the KH with a RO water change/s back to zero or close to it.

Water will hold the same ppm of gas either way.
Your measurements for CO2 are likely based much more on experience and eyeballing the plant's responses, since you cannot measure the CO2 since you have little to no buffer, unless you do the indirect methods I suggested and raise the KH for a reading and then lower it back down.

Higher KH waters have more total carbon, but they have the exact same ppm of CO2 as softer water.
Measure the CO2 in a glass of tap water that's hard and one that's soft, they should have precisely the same CO2 ppm if they are at equilibrium with the air. Higher KH will increase the solubility of CO2.
But soft water, even very soft water should have little issue dissolving CO2 gas into solution.

Prove this to yourself.
You'll see why you do not inject any more CO2 in a soft water tank as a hard water tank.
You still add the same amount of gas, and the plants will use the same amount of CO2 gas as well.
That does not change even if you remove the KH or raise it. That just affects the solutibility, not delivery of CO2 to the plants.

If anything, the lowered solubility means that there will be more CO2 micro bubbles persisting..thus the plants can use the gas phase of CO2(which is at a much higher concentration when it comes into contact with the plant) vs the liquid [aq] phase(muc lower concentration ppnms and a slower flux into/out of the plant than a gas). But a plant in 0 KH and a plant in 5 KH should have the same CO2 demand if all else is equal.

If you feel the CO2 mist method is useful, then lower KH's will help.
Observations also suggest this.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Thanks for your opinion! I think you are good in Chemistry and plant well too.
However, my hobby is aquascaping instead of Chemistry. I even don't have thermometer and pH meter in my tank! I also never take care about the kH .......all is my experience.
I just see that using large amount of CO2 can increase the growth of the plant and they look healthier.
I change 1/3 water of my tank twice a week, this is to dilute wasted ingredients and prevent the algae predication.

Sorry for my poor English and Chemistry.

Regards,
Barry

Hi Barry, actually, you are better off not knowing
I think foklks do not focus enough on watching and observing their plants nearly enough , those make a much better "test kit".

The method you use works well and is similar to Amano and my own methods(large weekly, 2x a week water changes and high CO2 etc).

Amano similar, he does not test much.

Rather, he focuses much more on the scape etc.
Many folks get stuck in the details and never get to scaping unfortunately, I try to help them learn to grow plants and why, then they can better do such nice aqua scapes.

I started off that way myself, then went into figuring out why the I had better growth/results than other folks.
Another skill you have is excellent photographic ability.
That is a key element when doing scaping and preserving the work and effort you have done.
You guys are doing some nice scapes there, keep it up please!

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[plantbrain]

Chris once the alkalinity is removed, the pH is free to bob all over the place since it has nothing to balance CO2 acid. So a very small change in the CO2 ppm can cause a large shift in pH.

Many folks have cried, whines, kicked and screamed that this pH shift is bad.........actually thery just added too CO23, the pH shift is not what causes the issue. Again, prove this simple test to your self: do a large water change, say 80% with the tap water.

Measure the pH change before after, you can get over .6-1.0 pH changes if you do this since our tanks are enriched with lots of CO2...........and the tap sometimes, but not always, is not.

Does the large water change hurt the fish? The Plants?
I think Barry can also verify this as well even without a test kit or a pH measurement, you see it's a fairly straight forward common sense thing.

You do not need to be techincal, you just need to not get lost in the details and be a good at your observations, like Barry.

I was very untechical and loved my Dutch scapes back years ago, I just did what made the plants grow and did not worry about what other folks said, that's why I added things like PO4, 30ppm or more of CO2, lots of traces etc........

I simply did not know what other people where doing or that it was something bad for the tank compared to the dogma/myths at the time.

I think While Barry might think I'm critiquing him, I'm actually very pleased at his approach, he's, as well as others in the group learned what many seem to have a rough time doing=> it takes a lot of work, a lot of effort and watching his plants produces to produce these very nice scapes.
Many folks are lazy or forget, or put things off etc and try toa void work but want the nice scapes.
Barry works hard as does Amano and Jeff Senske, David Oliver etc, no less hard than I do with plant physiology etc.

That's often what most of the folks in this hobby seek and that gets them into this hobby, not chemistry and water quality etc.

Yuck

That's why I suggested EI and other simple methods that do not use test kits, even the CO2 does not require the test kits, but you can use the test kits to get a ball park, then eye ball the and tweak things from there.

But some folks wanna get caught up in it..........and never get out.........if you like Barry's and the groups work, focus more on the design and plan more, also watch the plants and add more to tweak things.

Barry, have you guys considered do a series of simple single species tanks and then slowly add complexity and to it over time?

This is fun.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[craynerd]

Thanks for your time in replying Tom, i appreciate it.

Towards the final period of my last tank, i certainly experimented, took away different factors and observed their results. From reading your work and certainly the work of CAU, i can see that test kits are hardly used and we should be using plants as indicators.

Have you got a thread/post anywhere, even on your site with common problems/issues and their normal cause: eg. spot algae - too little nitrate, holes in the leaves - too little iron/potassium , slow/sudden slow growth - little postassium.

I mean these are HUGE generalisations but they are the sorts of things i have found during my short time in this hobby.
I understand this will come with time and experience, but it would nice to see a list of common problems and normal reasons from other peoples experiences.

Sorry to diverse from the thread title CAU guys, its just been a very interesting dicussion.

Regards
Chris

 

[nightowl2912]

Thanks everyone for loving my tank.

to craynerd

tks for ur comments...

yes u are right
i have been taken out all equipment for the picture.


to Chris_Wood

here is my tank spec.
Lights : 36W PL X 2
fertilizers : ADA Step 1, ECA, Iron bottom
substrate : ADA IRON Bottom ，ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia
Change water : 1/3 per 3 days
CO2: Pressurised CO2 non stop 4 bubbles per second

hi barry, you run your CO2 non stop,
do you run your lights non stop too

Andy

 

[craynerd]

do you mean without a siesta or 24 /7 ?

 

[plantbrain]

Most folks that are good scapers tend to add CO2 only during the day.
Why add CO2 at night? Plants are not using it.
Unless you have a wimpy unpowered CO2 reactor and flow rate that takes 6 hours to get things going well + you have high light, then adding it during the light peroid is all that's ever needed.

You do not gain anything for the fish by providing them with high chronic CO2 levels.

That's worse than pH changes from CO2 ever would be.

Amano is very weird about not adding CO2 at night, he told me it was considered "Taboo" in Japan.

I have my own reasons, mainly it allows me to add more CO2 during the day when the plants need it most and a chance to off gas excess amounts at night. This adds a much larger saftey margin when eye balling the CO2 level in the tank like Barry, Gary, Amano, myself, you name it.

Less testing/algae, more gardening and designing.

Then you can try and do the same type of scapes as CAU, Amano etc and look at the plants more and less at the test kits.......

I know both methods........few do though, they are mostly one, or the other.........

There is some dumb luck with the eyeballing methods though and it's not easy nor for weveryone.

I got lucky when I first got into fully planted tanks and CO2.
But it's no longer luck these days, I know how and why.

There are quite a few folks teaching the chem stuff, but the more folks like CAU we have teaching folks how to scape and to look at their plants, the better and stronger the hobby will be.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[craynerd]

Would be nice to see a thread with some common plant problems/changes and their normal cause !!

 

[nightowl2912]

hi chris i was on about 24/7

Andy





p.s. chris i got that bottle filled £2.50