Ultra Violet

gabbman

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I added a 35 gal tank to my inventory back in April. I have a Fluval 304 filter as well as an ultra violet light (supposidly to handle up to 75 gal tank).

I cycled the tank for 6 weeks with 1/4 water changes before I introduced 2 Molly's, 2 Swords, a Red-Tail Shark and a Clown Loach, from my other tank.

Regular weekly 1/4 water changes, and monthly filter cleaning and media replacement and periodic testing for amonia and nitrate levels have led me to believe I have a healthy tank, and seemingly happy group of fish.

Last week I purchased two more smaller Clown Loaches to add to the family.

To-day I notice what appears to be ich on my origional larger clown loach.

Now I understand the risk each time you introduce new livestock, but I was told that the ultra violet filter is supposed to eliminate all posibility of ich.

I'd like to hear of any other's expiences with ultra violet, so I know if I was just a victem of bad luck or good salesmanship.

TIA
Gord
 
Paul_MTS said:
you need to replace the UV bulb every 6 months for it to work.
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They forgot to tell me that part and it's not mentioned in the reading material supplied.

Now if I replace the bulb, will that be enough to do the job, or am I back on the coppersafe for a month.
 
UV light only destroys organisms that are free floating IN the water. It will not get rid of an ich infestation that is already ON fish, or cure a bacterial disease fish may have.

Clown loaches are very susceptible to ich and are most prone to it during the shipping/moving/new tank process due to stress or change in water quality. Your new loaches probably passed it on to the larger loach.

Treatment for ich requires slowly raising the tank temperature up to around 86F and performing large, regular water changes. Medication, chosen and dosed carefully depending on your fish stock, may also help.

UV filters aren't all that useful on the freshwater tank and most consider them unnecessary.
 
modernhamlet said:
UV light only destroys organisms that are free floating IN the water. It will not get rid of an ich infestation that is already ON fish, or cure a bacterial disease fish may have.

Clown loaches are very susceptible to ich and are most prone to it during the shipping/moving/new tank process due to stress or change in water quality. Your new loaches probably passed it on to the larger loach.

Treatment for ich requires slowly raising the tank temperature up to around 86F and performing large, regular water changes. Medication, chosen and dosed carefully depending on your fish stock, may also help.

UV filters aren't all that useful on the freshwater tank and most consider them unnecessary.
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Thought so. OK, back to some frequent maintenance and med's for a bit. I appreciate the tip on the temperature increase too, I remember reading that over a year ago and it had slipped my mind.

Oh well the U/V acts as a surface water tension breaker and is probably more usefull in oxygenating then purifying.

Thanks for the input, it's nice to know you have support on the idea's that I was second guessing myself on.
 
I have a couple of UV's and on the odd occation have introduced new fish that then show symptoms of ICH. If the fish can stand the heat and meds then I still use these for at least the first three days (just as a fail safe) but after this I find the ICH is free swimming and the UV kicks in and finished the ICH off.

Having used these for some time I would have to disagree with you modernhamlet on UV's not being useful on the freshwater tanks. I have One UV attached to one of my Zebra plec tanks and recently had a devestating outbreak of velvet. The only tank that did not get and show any symptoms of the velvet was the one with the UV.
 
To elaborate on a an earlier post, a UV sterilizer only eradicates organisms that come in direct contact with the UV light source. So the organism must be in a "free swimming/floating" stage in it's lifecycle. However, UV sterilization can be a useful tool when implementing a thereputic program for a sick fish. UV, combined with elevated temperature, frequent water renewal, and proper chemical treatment (as mentioned earlier) in a seperate "hospital" aquarium can be the most effective treatment method. This is true, regardless of salinity.
 
The chemical treatments and the salt baths are only effective against the free floating stage of Ich too. That is why you must carry on treating for at least 5 days (to ensure the entire life cycle is broken). While the parasite is on the fish the med's can't harm it.

I recently had a horrendous outbreak of Ich on my 6 new clown loaches and after installing the UV forgot about chemical treatments but the ich died within a week.
 
andywg said:
The chemical treatments and the salt baths are only effective against the free floating stage of Ich too. That is why you must carry on treating for at least 5 days (to ensure the entire life cycle is broken). While the parasite is on the fish the med's can't harm it.

I recently had a horrendous outbreak of Ich on my 6 new clown loaches and after installing the UV forgot about chemical treatments but the ich died within a week.
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So it looks like the battle of the ICH has a more positive outcome when combining the meds with the UV.
 
UV is considered the big gun but it is not cheap to install, but when you have a large tank (like more than 100 gallons) it saves a lot on treating a tank that size.
 
It is important to note also that a UV cannot kill 100% of any pest, ich, algae, bacteria, whatever. This is simply becuase the UV is not exposed to the entrie tank. The UV will significantly cut into the population levels, but cannot make the population levels 0. The population will decrease in number until the rate at which the UV kills is the same rate at which new organisms are created.

That is why you must also do the other cures, be it salt, or meds, or temperature. These treat the entrie tank, not just a small volume.
 
Bignose said:
It is important to note also that a UV cannot kill 100% of any pest, ich, algae, bacteria, whatever. This is simply becuase the UV is not exposed to the entrie tank. The UV will significantly cut into the population levels, but cannot make the population levels 0. The population will decrease in number until the rate at which the UV kills is the same rate at which new organisms are created.

That is why you must also do the other cures, be it salt, or meds, or temperature. These treat the entrie tank, not just a small volume.
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That is why you have the UV set up so that it takes the entire volume of the tank through it around twice per hour.

Otherwise, from what you are saying, because it isn't irradiating the whole tank then the Ich will always be present. If that were the case then whenever I have my UVs off line, or am awaiting a new tube, the Ich would come flying back. It doesn't.

Also, using your theory about only affecting the water that flows through it, this would make external cannister and sump filters bad because they only filter the water that goes through them.
 
But that is exactly what I am saying... UV lights, anything that only affects a part of the tank will never, ever get rid of 100%. It can come darn close, but never 100%. The curve is an asymptotic function that gets very close to 0, but will never be exactly zero given infinite time.

Without getting into the differential equations that govern the system, let me illustrate an example:

Lets start with a 100 gal tank, with a concentration of ich as 100 ich organisms per gallon. Further, lets assume that the UV flows 1 gallon per minute, and 95% of all ich that goes through the light is killed. Further still, let the return from the UV steralizer be instantly mixed with the entire tank (that is the tank is perfectly mixed, no ich hiding in the corner). Lastly, lets say the reproduction rate of ich is in one hour, on average, 10 ich organism spawn into 11. So the rate of ich production is 1 ich per 10 existing organisms per hour or (1/60) of ich per 10 existing organisms per minute.

(Please note I made all those numbers up on the spot, to do this correctly the real numbers would have to be looked up)

* At time 0 (starting time) there are 100*100 = 10,000 ich total
* In one minute 1 gallon goes through the UV. The 1 gallon contains 100 ich. 95% are killed in the light, therefore a loss of 95 occurs. But, the ick in the tank are still growing. (1/60)*(1/10)*10,000 = 16.66 gain
The net gain/loss is 95-16.67, so the average number of ich after one minute is 10000-(95-16.67) = 9921.67. So at time 1, total number of ich is 9921.67
* In the next minute another gallon goes through the UV, but 100 ich don't goes through, only 99.2167 since the concentration went down. 95% of these die: 94.256 die. (1/60)*(1/10)*9921.67 = 16.536 spawn.
Net result is that there is 9921.67-(94.26-16.54)=9843.95 ich left.

Look at what happened. In the first minute the UV light netted a kill 78.33. In the second minute is only netted 77.72. It will go down every minute. Until the kill rate of the light is the same as the reproduction rate of the ich.

* after 1 hour, the average net kill is only 48.87
* after 10 hours, the average net kill is only 0.70

This ananysis works until a very small number of ich organisms are left, then the random nature of the process takes over. But, basically I wanted to show you that there is always an ich that will survive and not go through the UV light. That is why medications need to be used as they treat the entire tank.

Note that the numbers above are only averages, since there are a great deal of random things that occur that can change this analysis.

Real life is even worse, since tanks in no way are perfectly mixed. Using solely a UV light, an ich can hide behind a plant or in the gravel and never get mixed into the water column and therfore never go though the UV light.

This same anaysis can be used for ammonia levels. The major difference is that ammonia is not self-propagating. That is 10 units of ammonia do not become 11 spontaneously. Ich reproduces. The rate of generation of ammonia is fixed given a certian fish fed a certain diet at a certain temperature. The rate of ich is not fixed, as the population continuously grows.

So long as your filter has enough bacteria in it, the rate of ammonia generation by your fish can be the same as the rate of ammonia break down in your filter. That can settle to zero. But, since ich reproduces, the amount of ich after one hour is based on the amount if ich that was there to start with.

Mathematically: Rate of ammonia production = a constant
Rate of ich production = current concentration of ich to a power (like squared)

This is why filters work for reducing the levels of ammonia to zero, even though they only treat a small volume of the tank, while UV lights do not reduce the ich to zero. Finally, at such a small concetration of ich, the fish may be carriers, but non-symptomatic. That is, if there is only on small ich in their gills, they may not be showing the irritation that a heavily infested fish would.
 
you also have to bear in mind that a UV will take out any meds so treating with meds with a UV on the system is pointless. All pond treatments you buy will tell you to turn the UV off whilst treating as in a pond the UV light in not concentrated enought to make a difference to what ever you are treating for.

In an aquarium the concentration of light is much greater so does kill off most diasease.

Personally i wouldn't run my big tank with out one as having rays in the tank means I can basically use no treatements in there.
 
Paul_MTS said:
you also have to bear in mind that a UV will take out any meds
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Paul, I assume you are referring to the breakdown of meds via the small amount of ozone probuced by the UV unit. Does anyone have any info on what meds are affected, and at what rate?
 

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