Ugf And Canister Combo

[nmonks]

The idea you need strong lights and CO2 fertilisation for a planted tank is a myth. Or, more precisely, it isn't what you need in all situations. CO2 is used because it removes what is known as a limiting factor. As light intensity goes up, photosynthesis speeds up until it tapers off because of a limiting factor. Usually the first limiting factor is CO2 concentration. By providing more CO2, you allow the rate of photosynthesis to carry on increasing until another limiting factor is reached. Each time you add more of whatever the limiting factor is, the rate of photosynthesis increases still further before tapering off once more.

Now, not all plants evolved to photosynthesis rapidly. Slow-growing plants don't need to because their demand for sugars isn't particularly high. Anubias, Java fern and Cryptocoryne wendtii are three examples of slow-growing plants. Their maximum growth rate is built into them, and if you add more light or CO2, nothing happens. Instead, algae take advantage of the bright light, high CO2 conditions and grow faster than otherwise. You have to remember these plants evolved to live in shady areas, often rainforest streams. This is different to, say, Vallisneria, which grow in shallow water lakes, rivers and estuaries where they exposed to full, direct sunlight.

With Anubias, Java fern and Cryptocoryne wendtii your best results will come when they are planted under a bit of shade. Anubias and Java fern especially tend to become "algae magnets" when under direct light, so a clump of floating Indian fern is exactly what you want with them. Cryptocoryne wendtii is quite a bit more adaptable, but I find it does well under a bit of shade as well.

For these plants, 1-1.5 watts/gallon of standard fluorescent lighting is ample, and CO2 totally redundant because they'll never be photosynthesising fast enough to use up the CO2 in the water already.

Cheers, Neale

Oh, that's quite an interesting comment for me, the bit about the algae. My son's 28G/106L came with a 15w T8 strip which was a bit too low-light so I added a second identical strip to put me barely over 1w/g. I'm dosing 1 capful of Excel daily, and obviously have no pressurized CO2. I do 50% water changes weekly, partly to regain some minerals as my KH is zero. I've struggled with continuing brown algae (diatoms I assume) and I've chalked it up to too much light (and of course not enough CO2) even though I only run them 5 hours total. I've also had a very small bit of BBA which I chalk up to the large CO2 swings of the water changes and I've always been curious whether those same swings might also help out the brown algae (any thoughts on that Neale?) I've lessened the algae by adding a Koralia Nano to augment the circulation of the Eheim's spraybar, but I still get small amounts. The interesting thing is that the tank has plenty of java ferns and anubia (also red wendtii) ... are they particularly vulnerable to the algae in this situation? I'd never thought about the floating plants. Which floating ones to you like best again? Maybe my fear of the ferns and anubias not getting enough light is unfounded.. I've always kept them out from under the shade of my huge lily-pad-like swordplant. WD

 

[waterdrop]

Of course I immediately began looking at google images of indian fern. There seem to be some pictures of a plant with a wider leaf with very irregular leaf margins and a different plant that seems more needle-like in overall character. Perhaps these are different varieties? Thanks for your clear paragraph up there - I hadn't thought of the possibility of these plants (java, anubia) as being this self-limiting! Glad you picked the Val example too as I'd been dreaming a bit of how nice giant vals might look in this 28g (which is somewhat tall like the typical 29-tall 17 incher) but I had hesitated, feeling that Vals like hard water (opposite of mine) and now you've helped me see the two categories of plants would be looking for opposite light conditions, making my chances of success with that all the more difficult I suppose. Its hard dealing with the 17" height this tank has. WD

(apologies to the OP!)

 

[nmonks]

Of course I immediately began looking at google images of indian fern. There seem to be some pictures of a plant with a wider leaf with very irregular leaf margins and a different plant that seems more needle-like in overall character. Perhaps these are different varieties?

No. Indian fern, Ceratopteris thalictroides, has different leaf shapes depending whether it's above or below the waterline. The floating version has flat leaves a bit like those of maple trees. When the leaves grow above the waterline, or the plant is grown out of the water, the leaves become narrower and more feathery. Often you'll see the feathery sort sold in bunches in pet stores. This form dies back kept underwater, and new growth is like the floating form. If you can buy the floating form directly, so much the better. Note that Indian fern doesn't do particularly well grown underwater; it's much happier floating, and needs much less light to do well this way. You can trim away above-the-waterline growth as needs be, and allow the canopy to grow downwards from the surface. A thick floating mat of Indian fern will be at least 5 cm deep, so it's a bold splash of greenery. It grows very fast, so you will need to crop regularly otherwise the bottom of the tank will get a bit too gloomy.

Glad you picked the Val example too as I'd been dreaming a bit of how nice giant vals might look in this 28g (which is somewhat tall like the typical 29-tall 17 incher) but I had hesitated, feeling that Vals like hard water (opposite of mine) and now you've helped me see the two categories of plants would be looking for opposite light conditions, making my chances of success with that all the more difficult I suppose. Its hard dealing with the 17" height this tank has. WD

Vallisneria is very adaptable, and I've had excellent growth even in fairly low lighting levels. The standard Vallisneria spiralis form is especially adaptable, and with leaf lengths up to 60 cm, would be ideally suited to your tank. Giant Vallisneria varieties rarely look good in home aquaria, and often become serious algae magnets. Hair algae tends to grow along the leaf edges, as well as mats of blue-green algae. I'd recommend avoiding them.

Cheers, Neale

 

[Dave Spencer]

I do recommend floating plants with epiphytes though, otherwise algae becomes a real pest. Indian fern will stop algae in its tracks….

Is this always the case Neale, as algae needn`t become a pest in this situation? I have grown Anubias sp and Microsorum sp in high light, high CO2, high ferts and no floating plants without any algae. Keep the Anubias sp at the surface where the light is most intense and it will chuck flowers out of the surface.

and as you crop the Indian fern back, you're physically removing nitrate and phosphate too.

Isn`t controlling the light a far better solution to buying a possibly unwanted plant? The first thing we do to slow our cars down is to come off the acelerator. N and P are needed by plants, so it may not be a good idea to target their removal in all cases.

Oh, that's quite an interesting comment for me, the bit about the algae. My son's 28G/106L came with a 15w T8 strip which was a bit too low-light so I added a second identical strip to put me barely over 1w/g. I'm dosing 1 capful of Excel daily, and obviously have no pressurized CO2. I do 50% water changes weekly, partly to regain some minerals as my KH is zero. I've struggled with continuing brown algae (diatoms I assume) and I've chalked it up to too much light (and of course not enough CO2) even though I only run them 5 hours total. I've also had a very small bit of BBA which I chalk up to the large CO2 swings of the water changes and I've always been curious whether those same swings might also help out the brown algae (any thoughts on that Neale?)

Like a lot of people, I would always get brown diatoms when I started a new tank. Ever since I discovered Zeolite I never get them. We both know each others arguments and counter arguments on ammonia removal in this manner, but, if you don`t want to see diatoms again…

I've lessened the algae by adding a Koralia Nano to augment the circulation of the Eheim's spraybar, but I still get small amounts. The interesting thing is that the tank has plenty of java ferns and anubia (also red wendtii) ... are they particularly vulnerable to the algae in this situation?

WD if they are getting covered in algae, then take a look at your methodology, not the choice of plants.

Now, not all plants evolved to photosynthesis rapidly. Slow-growing plants don't need to because their demand for sugars isn't particularly high. Anubias, Java fern and Cryptocoryne wendtii are three examples of slow-growing plants. Their maximum growth rate is built into them, and if you add more light or CO2, nothing happens.

Whilst they still remain relatively slow growing plants Neale, there is definitely a noticeable increase in growth rates in my epiphytes in higher light, CO2 etc. Bolbitis heudolotii has the most dramatic increase in growth rates, although is certainly no Rotala sp.

......instead, algae take advantage of the bright light, high CO2 conditions and grow faster than otherwise.

I really do have to disagree with this. As outlined above, they can thrive in a wide range of conditions. Slow growing plants are very adaptable in my own experience (I have also seen endless numbers of planted tanks with similar results). I have had various Anubias sp and various Cryptocoryne sp growing in very different levels of light within the same tank without any problems.

With Anubias, Java fern and Cryptocoryne wendtii your best results will come when they are planted under a bit of shade. Anubias and Java fern especially tend to become "algae magnets" when under direct light, so a clump of floating Indian fern is exactly what you want with them……

…and if you don`t want Indian fern because you think it is a crappy looking plant?

For these plants, 1-1.5 watts/gallon of standard fluorescent lighting is ample, and CO2 totally redundant because they'll never be photosynthesising fast enough to use up the CO2 in the water already.

I agree entirely. I started planted aquariums whilst there was a dash for 4 x T5 HO lamps. Being a middle aged grumpy old git, I soon realised that boy racer type lighting was just that, a waste of time and money. For medium sized tanks and upwards, 2 x T8 lamps the length of the tank will grow anything. I had a 240l tank with very dense planting that had to have pressurised CO2, though. As tanks run with two tubes become larger, the relative amount of light to tank size increases.

Plants are highly adaptable in the majority of instances, which makes keeping them so much easier than is generally thought on TFF from what I read. Crypts can be kept in sand in direct light. It is easy, honestly, because plants are tough and adaptable, making it easy for us to apply just a modicum of care for them, or go down more complex routes of care for aquascaping competitions.

Dave.

 

[nmonks]

I do recommend floating plants with epiphytes though, otherwise algae becomes a real pest. Indian fern will stop algae in its tracks….

Is this always the case Neale, as algae needn`t become a pest in this situation? I have grown Anubias sp and Microsorum sp in high light, high CO2, high ferts and no floating plants without any algae. Keep the Anubias sp at the surface where the light is most intense and it will chuck flowers out of the surface.

I dare say you can grow Anubias thus; all I'm saying is that it's often easier to grow it with some shade, re-creating precisely the conditions it evolved to exploit.

and as you crop the Indian fern back, you're physically removing nitrate and phosphate too.

Isn`t controlling the light a far better solution to buying a possibly unwanted plant? The first thing we do to slow our cars down is to come off the acelerator. N and P are needed by plants, so it may not be a good idea to target their removal in all cases.

I can't think why anyone wouldn't want Indian fern! It's a fantastic plant. Fish love it, and many species happily eat it. It's a great hiding place for female livebearers and their fry. Also good for bubblenest builders, and like all floating plants, inhibits the jumping tendencies of things like spiny eels. As for nitrogen and phosphate, in my tanks, these usually aren't in limited supply! So while there may be (almost certainly are) better ways to keep them at optimal levels, simple water changes and physical removal of floating plants seems to work for me.

Now, not all plants evolved to photosynthesis rapidly. Slow-growing plants don't need to because their demand for sugars isn't particularly high. Anubias, Java fern and Cryptocoryne wendtii are three examples of slow-growing plants. Their maximum growth rate is built into them, and if you add more light or CO2, nothing happens.

Whilst they still remain relatively slow growing plants Neale, there is definitely a noticeable increase in growth rates in my epiphytes in higher light, CO2 etc. Bolbitis heudolotii has the most dramatic increase in growth rates, although is certainly no Rotala sp.

I have Cryptocoryne wendtii in a windowsill aquarium, and I agree, it does well in direct light. But growth rate isn't anything like as fast as a fast-growing plant.

......instead, algae take advantage of the bright light, high CO2 conditions and grow faster than otherwise.

I really do have to disagree with this. As outlined above, they can thrive in a wide range of conditions. Slow growing plants are very adaptable in my own experience (I have also seen endless numbers of planted tanks with similar results). I have had various Anubias sp and various Cryptocoryne sp growing in very different levels of light within the same tank without any problems.

I'm sure it does vary from situation to situation. But if you do have an algae problem in an aquarium, it's a pretty safe bet that too much light or mineral nutrients are to blame. Not the only reasons of course, but they're common ones.

With Anubias, Java fern and Cryptocoryne wendtii your best results will come when they are planted under a bit of shade. Anubias and Java fern especially tend to become "algae magnets" when under direct light, so a clump of floating Indian fern is exactly what you want with them……

…and if you don`t want Indian fern because you think it is a crappy looking plant?

I think it's lovely! Give me a tank with floating plants and happy, breeding fish versus an Amano tank with (seemingly) terrified tetras any day of the week!

Plants are highly adaptable in the majority of instances, which makes keeping them so much easier than is generally thought on TFF from what I read.

I certainly agree with you here. Planted aquaria are often made complicated because people keep species that either don't do well underwater or require very specific conditions not easily presented in an aquarium setting. If you choose adaptable plant species and provide the basics, you can have a very "green" aquarium with almost no bother at all.

Cheers, Neale

 

[waterdrop]

My my, we are getting into the feisty range I fear and being a yank I fear my debating skills will never keep up, besides, I'm chicken ..Let me say that I've read any number of things from both of you and have lots of respect for both of you. Its quite a pleasure to come into this bizarre world I don't know and be able to learn about it from people like yourselves who bother to write things out for beginners like me! I will take certainly take all the statements up above under advisement.

My "Re-Beginner" experience is soon to get two candles on the cake and in that time I've now explored the extremes, I've had conversations with both Amano (not that I know Japanese ) and Walstad and I really find both approaches fascinating and feel the world has plenty of room for these and all the things between. I have a great time looking at the lovely tanks of our members here in the TFF planted pictures. In my previous experience in the late 50's, 60's, I remember the occasional tank that had beautiful plantings, usually more with the Walstad look, but its quite exciting that so many hobbyists are now doing so many new things.

Let me hasten to say that, at least to me, my diatom problem seems fairly minor. I get a little sprinkling of it on the larger java fern leaves that I sponge off during the weekly maintenance. It tries to produce thicker patches on the anubia leaves. I'm really rather surprised that 30 watts over 28 USG (what's that? 1.07 w/g?) for 5 hours a day turns out to be high. The current attempt at nutrients is 1 capful of Excel daily and 1/4 cap Flourish every other day (and 1/2 cap Flourish Potassium the alternating day from the plain Flourish because I've run out of F.Nitrogen and F.Phosphorus and who knows why I haven't reordered).. perhaps just too many nutrients for the slow processes in this tank (?)

WD

 

[OldMan47]

I am going to join WD in saying that I see a lot that I need to digest in this thread. I have a lot of success with doing Walstad style NPTs and really like the way that my Crypt aponogetifolia is growing and taking over the top of some of my tanks. I have had some success with moderate lighting growing Anubias nana and got the result of underwater flowering of the plant. I have floating plants in almost all of my tanks because I am partial to them. That includes 3 kinds of duckweed, some frogbit and some water lettuce. All grow well with moderate lighting and give a nice greenish shady tint to the tank as the light shines through the layer of plant material floating on the surface. I have even found that the best way to grow java moss that is free of any algae is to grow it with only indirect natural light, leave the lights off in the tank and it grows well. My Anubias has given me this flower twice now in about a year and a half.

The C. aponogetifolia in one of the tanks. It is the big plant that is folding back on itself and coming down across the glass in the picture. You can also see the floating duckweed in the picture that provides some shade for the fish.

 

[fatheadminnow]

I really like this picture, OM!

What did you say the green "hair-like" plant floating at the top is?

-FHM

 

[OldMan47]

The thing that looks a bit like hair at the top is the individual roots coming down from some duckweed. Try a google of lemna to see the available varieties. They are tiny floating plants of just 2 or 3 round leaves each with a tiny root coming down into the water. They reproduce in a well lit tank so well that I never fret about losing a few hundred when I feed some to my rainbow cichlids. The 7 that I have in my 6 foot tank can clear a double layer of the stuff from that tank in less than 2 weeks, they simply love it.

 

[fatheadminnow]

Great, thanks for that info!

EDIT: I see this stuff in the rivers by me, would it be alright if I were to just grab some from there or would this not be a good idea?

This would be a great addition to me Kribensis tank!

-FHM

 

[drobbyb]

When I had my anubias, they threw flowers twice for me too. They were kept in the bottom third of the tank whilst flowering. I'm no plant guy, and I did have green spot algae in my tank, but I would say that my few plants did very well with no intervention by me at all. Very low tech with only .9 watts per gallon, no ferts, and no CO2. I would just love to keep a nice planted tank, but my wallet isn't thick enough for what I want to do. I feel that Dave could teach me a thing or two, and even though we don't always see eye to eye, I respect him for his achievements and experience.

 

[fatheadminnow]

Yeah, I have no idea what is wrong with my water at my house?

I have 1.6 WPG and dose micro and macro ferts, yet my plants still seem like they are still dieing?

-FHM

 

[nmonks]

I know it isn't fashionable to say this, but there are good arguments for choosing plants that thrive in your tank, rather than worrying about why other plants don't succeed. I'm a big fan of starting out with the indestructible species (like Anubias, Cryptocoryne wendtii, and Vallisneria spiralis) and once they're settled, add the more delicate species. If they succeed, great; if not, pull 'em out.

Yes, I agree, this isn't the way to create an Amano-type tank with a firm ground plan of which plant species are going to go where. But that isn't how I create planted tanks, so I don't care!

Cheers, Neale

I have 1.6 WPG and dose micro and macro ferts, yet my plants still seem like they are still dieing?

 

[Plecc]

Thanks nmonks for the very helpful feedback,

At the moment my tank is planted with Vallisneria spiralis which is growing well but is getting a bit boring visually.
I really like some of the other beginner plants you mentioned, (Java ferns, Anubias and Cryptocoryne wendtii) are all three of these plants from the same family? (epiphytes)
I would like to try and grow a few of these plants onto my existing bog wood, do you have any advice on how to secure the plants to the bog wood to help them take root?

While doing a bit of research into types of UGF trays, I found that Eheim make a modular system designed to work with there canister filters either regular or reverse flow, (looks great!) but i cant find any retailers in the UK anywhere!
Can you recommend any alternatives that may be easier for me to get hold of?

You mentioned that a fine but free flowing substrate is best to get the most from this type of system. Can you think of a substrate that is fine enough not to damage Cory and Loach barbels but still coarse enough to not block the UGF?
How about very large shot blasting bead, 2mm frosted glass balls! (not too natural, but could look really nice when the tank is lit)

Plecc.

 

[Dave Spencer]

I would like to try and grow a few of these plants onto my existing bog wood, do you have any advice on how to secure the plants to the bog wood to help them take root?

The Crypts could be tied to bogwood in theory, but their huge root structure will look untidy. The Anubias sp and Java fern can be attached with fishing line or cotton, but the easiest method is to use super glue.

Dave.