Tropical Convert To Marine. Lots Of Questions :/

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phishyphil

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Okay so I have been keeping FW fish, planted tanks + cichlids for the past 3 years and always wanted to try my hand at a SW setup.

After gaining a fair amount of experience with various tanks, I now find myself once again in the vast dessert of information in regards to SW, and I am not afraid to admit I know NOTHING of the subject, however, I am here to learn. Here is what I had in Mind for my intentions for the SW tank.


Possible Switch to The Salty Side

Tank Volume : 330 Litre (75 Gallon)​
Tank Size : 48”x 19” x 29”​
Plan : Fish Only With Live Rock (to begin with
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)​
Planned Substrate : Aragonite Sand. 1.5” Bed (25 kg) (55lbs)​
Live Rock : 40kg (£450) Or 20KG LR (£225) + 25kg Reef Stone (£179.99)​
Filtration : Biological (Live Rock) Mechanical (Foams, Filter Floss) Chemical (Carbon and phosphate/nitrate removers)​
Turnover : 10-20x Tank (3000-6000 lph) 1000 from filter, 3000 x 2 powerheads​
Lighting : 32” from substrate​
2 x 14000k 39w T5​
1 x Actinic 39w T5​
1 x Led Moonlight Strip​
Salinity Level : 1.023​
Lighting Period :
1 pm – Actinic’s On
2 pm - 14k's ON
8.45pm – Moonlights ON​
9 pm - 14k's OFF Actinic’s OFF
10 pm - Everything Off​

Potential Stocking

2 x Common Clown Fish (Male and Female)​
4 x Fire Fish​
3 x Kaudern Cardinal’s​
6 x Scarlet Reef Hermit Crabs (with Lots of empty shells for them)​
5 x Yellow Clown Goby​
3 x Cleaner Shrimp​

Questions :
1. Where to buy Caribsea Argonite sand cheapest?​

2. What Grain Size sand to use?​

3. Will this Lighting Set up work with my desired set up?​

4. What suitable Beginner Stocking would be advised for a Marine Newbie?​

5. Where to buy, and which reef salt? What is the cheapest and best?​

6. Do I need to stick the LR together (i.e. Silicone, epoxy) or just place it?​

7. I have used 2 different Calculators for live rock. One based on litres of water (stated I needed 35kg of LR for 330 Litres). The other based on tank Dimensions (gave me 47kg LR needed). Which one is it?​

8. My LFS is Selling Live Rock AND Reef Stone. Reef stone isn’t LIVE but they say it will be just as effective as LR when it eventually becomes live. Could I Mix these together? Half and Half?​

9. How Much LR will I need to Start my tank Off? Just trying to minimise initial phenomenal cost!​

10.What water parameter’s (Kh, Gh and Ph) should my tap water be to create my own salt water, as opposed to getting RO from the LFS?​

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Welcome to my world! I made the switch about 8 years ago after keeping FW since I was about 5. I find I still love planted tanks though so don't expect you will be a total convert, I sure wasn't.
1. Where to buy Caribsea Argonite sand cheapest?
I actually got my sand online at Petco.com. They delivered 170+ pounds of it...the FedEx guy must of hated me. I don't use the Carbsea though. I use AragAlive by Natures Ocean. I find it is a better grain size and has some interesting little bits of shell. The color is also more pleasing to my eye.

2. What Grain Size sand to use?
Small small small. Obviously not so small it blows everywhere, you're going to have quite a bit of flow, but small enough that it doesn't trap detritus. Phosphates are an enemy in a marine tank, especially if you grow corals (which you eventually will trust me). Advanced Aquarist Magazine did a study on substrates and found that fine grain substrate tanks had lower phosphate readings.

3. Will this Lighting Set up work with my desired set up?
If you are going to have fish only then lighting isn't an issue at all. If you want to grow corals then you will want a bright light.

4. What suitable Beginner Stocking would be advised for a Marine Newbie?
I would skip the cardinal but otherwise those are good starter fish. As for clowns I really recommend the A. ocellaris due to temperament. It's often called the False Percula. Great fish and won't bite you like other clowns. Here's a few articles I wrote that might help you.
How to pick a clean up crew
How to pick live rock
Good beginner corals
5. Where to buy, and which reef salt? What is the cheapest and best?
For fish only Instant Ocean is the way to go. It's good quality and doesn't cost a ton. If you start keeping corals you can just switch to Instant Ocean Reef Crystals. For fish only you can keep your salinity lower (just be sure to acclimate fish slowly using a drip method) 1.018-1.020 is fine. For a reef I recommend higher 1.025-1.026.

6. Do I need to stick the LR together (i.e. Silicone, epoxy) or just place it?
No you don't have to if you are careful with how you stack it. I don't fix it in anyway and never have. My current reef has nearly 300lbs of live rock. It's larger on bottom and sometimes it seems the rocks just know how to fit.

7. I have used 2 different Calculators for live rock. One based on litres of water (stated I needed 35kg of LR for 330 Litres). The other based on tank Dimensions (gave me 47kg LR needed). Which one is it?
If you get around 75 pounds of it you will be fine. The key is to make sure it's light and porous. You can have 200 pounds of bad live rock and it won't make a difference but 70 of good stuff will. It's all about surface area inside the rock so porous is where it's at. See the article above for details on this.

8. My LFS is Selling Live Rock AND Reef Stone. Reef stone isn’t LIVE but they say it will be just as effective as LR when it eventually becomes live. Could I Mix these together? Half and Half?
Meh...I personally like the real thing. I won't use manmade in my tank. Your choice but I don't like it. It's just not the same in several respects.

9. How Much LR will I need to Start my tank Off? Just trying to minimise initial phenomenal cost!
Start out with dry rock from a place like marco rocks online. They are much cheaper. Then get a bit of live and wait. The dry rock will eventually become live rock and you've saved a ton of money that way.

10.What water parameter’s (Kh, Gh and Ph) should my tap water be to create my own salt water, as opposed to getting RO from the LFS? I don't recommend using tap. RO is the way to do and if you keep corals RO/DI. Tap water contains some nasty things you don't want in a marine environment.

Also...get a refractometer to check your salinity with. It's the way to go. They are rather affordable on bulkreefsupply.com and make a world of difference. I started out with a hygrometer and was so glad when I got the refractometer.
 
Thanks for all the info tcamos! I too may be venturing into salt with a little 20gal I have sitting around. Nothing crazy but just to get a feel for it. One thing, could you expand on why not to use tap water?


Thanks,
Steve
 
Thank for the swift and informative reply !

Will be shopping around for the live rock this week. Many thanks
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Another Silly Question.

How much Rock would I need (bare minimum) to get the tank under way?

I would not be stocking any fish in this, only eventually something like snails / shrimp?

I will be adding live rock to this as the months progress (and the bank balance recovers from the expenditure)

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Tap vs RO/DI
Tap water can contain phosphates and metals as well as having varying hardness. In a marine tank we control the environment with the salts. The salts have all sorts of trace elements that are particular for a marine tank. I'm not saying it can't be done with tap but if you want to have a more pleasant time of it do the RO thing. I say this from personal experience having started my first marine tank with tap.

Live rock
What the bear minimum of live rock is depends on what you have in the tank and the tank size. In a 75 gallon tank you could get away with 50 pounds of quality live rock if you had only a few fish in there. The rock is your biological filtration as so must have enough surface area on and in it to handle the nutrients. Live rock takes the nitrogen cycle a step more than fresh water does. Deep in the rock anoxic bacteria grow that convert the nitrate into nitrogen gas which then leaves the tank. It's possible to have 0ppm nitrates in a reef tank due to this action. You can always add more rock later if you need to but for aquascasping purposes I like to get it all at once.

Below is some excerpts from my build thread on the reef forum where I hang out. Sorry for this being so long a post but it should give you an idea of how the rock can be stacked and managed in the tank. Side note, always put the rock in first then the sand. That way when you have burrowing creatures they don't undermine the foundation of the rock and the rock stays put. You can see the dry rock which is quite white. Now that it's been running for over a year you can't tell what was live and what was dry.

Well crap! I went to Reef Culture with my wife today to get base rock. It's $3.99 a pound and they give you 5% off if you have one of their t-shirts. We picked out some very nice rocks. More than one of them was 20 pounds by itself. Just massive rocks.

I ended up getting 80.25 pounds so just over $320 worth of rock.

My tank swallowed it!

210_gallon_stage6.jpg

I am guessing I have another 100 pounds or so between the two tanks I will be taking down but those are mostly smaller pieces (comparatively anyway). The idea of getting this beast was to have lots of open space but this is a bit ridiculous. I don't really want to spend another $200 on rock but I don't know if I can even lay this out how I want it. Aquascape is huge with me and I am really picky...I'm also slowly eating away my tank budget.
I posted above how I tried to do the rock and just gave up. I went and purchased some more rock and it turned out to be just the pieces I needed!

I have to give huge credit to my wife who got her hands wet and helped out with this.

The first photo is a whole tank shot to show the stack and the second photo is a close up of the stack. It's a little hard to see in the photo but the flat pieces stick out and form not only a great overhand but a great shelf. The top corner by the over flow is designed so that a giant paly rock I have will fit right there. The rock is huge and covered with palythoa and will be a great topper or that stack. On the other end there will be some acropora and my corcea goes in the dimple in the rock toward the bottom of the stack.

210_gallon_stage7.jpg


As you can see this is only one half of the rock work. I have the 50 pounds coming in and what I have from my other two tanks that will make up the right side of the tank and some extra areas.My Marco rock came tonight! How very exciting for me. This is the first time I have ever gotten rock online so my expectations were reserved at best.

I was very impressed with what I received. I had requested three large rocks and got them.

The first photo is what I saw when I opened the box. I removed the top bubble wrap to find each and every rock was individually wrapped. That really impressed me. I am not quite sure how I expected it to come, but this was certainly carefully done.

The next photo is the first rock I pulled out, then the next is all 50 pounds on the floor. They stated on their site they add 4 pounds to make up for rubble so the last photo is of the rubble that was left once it was all taken out. Certainly not 4 pounds worth. This is especially surprising since the rock is very fragile and snaps off easily.

210_gallon_stage8.jpg

The tank has rock from four local pet stores, Marco and one rock my wife brought me from a trip to the Bahamas in it! I feel like a grape picker for a winery...only the finest rock goes into our reef Chablis!

Anyway...I still have rock in my two tanks that I will use to complete this aquascape but the main design is set. Certain areas will be hidden by corals of course and others will have their lines completed by rocks that exist in my other tanks. For example a giant rock of green paly has a specific place it wants to go.

210_gallon_stage9.jpg


It's difficult to see the depth of the rockwork from photos. The two sides don't actually touch each other and it goes back into a canyon, lots of depth and 3Dishness to it in real life. In this photo it looks like one solid wall but it isn't.
It's been a little while since I posted an update, that's because I've been working. The rockwork is all done and I was able to move everything out of my 50 gallon. It was a huge job! I broke a couple of SPS but nothing major to speak of.

Picture one is sort of a full tank shot. I've only got one light on the tank until the LED's arrive. Actually the lights arrived but the hanging kit has not so I can't put them up.

The second and third photos are pretty cool to me. There is a rock I've had forever and it ended up fitting perfect on the end of the new rockwork. When I say perfectly it's insane...there was a dip in one rock and an outcropping on another that fit as if they were made to click into each other.

The next photo shows everything just piled in, nothing is in it's final home yet because I still have to tackle the BioCube and the corals in it. The last photo is of a mini-brittle star (it was pretty big for a mini) and I took it just to show how bringing the rock over from the old tank instantly makes the new tank alive.

All the fish are in the new tank and very happy. The tang and dottyback used to spar but now there is so much room they don't care anymore.

I added a few extra hermits, peppermints, and snails.

Everything lived, catching the fish was pretty easy with the exception of my watchman goby who resisted. He was exhausted. I do not plan on keeping him and the pistol shrimp but am having second thoughts since my daughter expressed a desire for me to keep them.

210_gallon_stage10.jpg
 
Just a few things to tack on to what tcamos already said.

3 x Kaudern Cardinal’s

If you get these, you'll probably be getting immature ones and will have to keep an eye on them as they grow. If you have a pair split off, others can be picked on. If you have all males, you might see some tattered fins all around. Or they could all totally get along; it's hit and miss, and there is reasonable amount of personality variation from one individual to another so that's not too surprising.


6 x Scarlet Reef Hermit Crabs (with Lots of empty shells for them)

If you go with these then make sure you only get others of the same type if you decide you need more at some point.

How much Rock would I need (bare minimum) to get the tank under way?

Not sure what you mean? You can start with a single piece as long as you don't start throwing tons of animals in until there is more.


10.What water parameter’s (Kh, Gh and Ph) should my tap water be to create my own salt water, as opposed to getting RO from the LFS?

The standard first marine tank tap answer is "no."


Tap water contains some nasty things you don't want in a marine environment.

Not the "scarey chemicals" explanation again...that has to be one of my biggest pet peeves in this stuff lol. Well, since someone requested an expansion...

One thing, could you expand on why not to use tap water?

The biggest baddies in the tap are ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels, phosphate, metals, and carbonates. If the tap nasty beyond those things or if the levels are extreme, then the drink-ability and safety for freshwater systems would also be questionable (not implying absurdity either; I have lived in areas where the tap was frequently not safe to drink!). All but carbonates can be dealt with pretty easily unless the levels are extreme, but there is no good, easy, or quick workaround for the carbonates. Salt mixes are designed in a way that basically assumes no significant KH in the water. If you have a reasonable KH, which can be as little as 2-4, you may see CaCO3 precipitate out straight away when the mix hits the water and you will be left with a layer of precipitates that refuse to dissolve. As soon as that happens, your pH, KH, and sometimes other parameters are mucked. Carbonates will also cause you problems with elevated KH levels (and knock-on effects on pH and other params) when using tap for topping off the tank to compensate for evaporation. So, even if you deal with everything else acceptably, if you've got 2dKH or more then you are in a bad spot and setting yourself up for problems.

Other things people freak out about are things like Fluoride and medications in the water. Fluoride toxicity is not something you need to worry about at normal levels. However, if you are in one of those small places where they went crazy with the stuff and children have been showing up with tooth deformities because of it, then I would steer clear of that stuff (and steer clear of drinking it!). Medications are also a bit of a silly thing to worry about. But, it's important to read the local water quality reports. You might get an unexpected negative surprise one day. Having had issues with fw systems in the past because of bad tap quality, I would be keeping an eye on those even if I didn't do marine.


So...basically it is far easier and safer if you can set up your own RO/RODI or if you have a convenient source of it, and tap is therefore a really bad beginner choice (so the answer is "no" when new reefers ask about tap). I have run my marine tanks off tap (including coarls...) for a few years despite starting with RODI when I was but a newb. However, while I am quite confident in my tap navigating abilities, I will also be the first to tell you that it has the potential to be a huge pain in the behind compared to using RO/RODI - and I eventually got an RODI unit of my own because of that.


EDIT: quote fix
 
Okay I think I understand :/

Its exciting to be a beginner again, however it is a tad scary.

If I was to purchase my sand next week and 5 kg of live rock, get this going in the tank, and stock maybe a shrimp or too, and add say 10kg of live rock every month, and when I reach 40kg, start looking at adding a fish or two?

This way I could use the time to pick up the habit of water changes with salt, testing parameters, and general SW maintenance.

Would this slow method work?
 
It's honestly not as hard as you think for a fish only tank. once you get into corals it's a bit more of a challenge but even that can be done easily with the right choice of corals. For a marine tank slow is always best. Slow and patient for each step of the process. You could add a pair of clown fish with minimal rock as long as the tank isn't holding onto ammonia/nitrite.
 
Okay then.

First things first.

1) Re-home current FW Tank Members
2) Purchase Dry Items (SW Test Kit, Salinity Test, Salt)
3) Scrub up the tank ready for Sand and Live Rock

Sorry for the stupid questions, but to cycle the tank with Live Rock, do I just place the Live rock into the tank, and let it do its thing with the live sand in order to make the sand truly live?

Or is there further need for a source of amonia i.e. piece of shrimp to decay ?

Secondly, I know this is not live rock, but would this be suitable for SW tank, purely for appearance sake and to increase the surface are of rock formation ? i.e. scenery?

Link - Ocean Rock - Link
 
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Yes, you let it do it's thing. If it's truly live it will have bacteria on it already and be ready for a couple of small fish pretty much right away. Depending on the quality of the rock there may or may not be some curing that happens. You can cure outside the tank or inside. If you do it inside the curing happens when dead things that are on and in the rock rot. This produces your ammonia and will generally be more than the bacteria can handle so if it's not cured rock then I would wait for fish. That rock looks suitable but I am not familiar with them so I can't say for sure.
 
Another Question or two !

To top off a tank, you only use RO water and not SALTED RO WATER, in order to maintain salinity. Is this correct?
What % water changes should be carried out and how often? For FOWLR and REEF

Thanks
PC
 
That's right. Salt itself doesn't evaporate so as water leaves the tank through evaporation the salt remains. This actually increases the specific gravity of the water and makes it more salty. So to bring it back to the right level you need to top off with only freshwater. I use an auto top off system so that the tank remains near the right level all the time. The frequency of water changes does depend on the tank and what's in it. A system with SPS corals should be done more often but fish only and many soft corals can go less. This can weekly or every other week between 10% to 25% of the water. I seldom would go deeper than that in a marine tank. Large water changes can affect the pH, temp, which can be harmful to corals.
 
Excellent Will Do. Think the New year will bring the change to SW. Thank you for all your help, no doubt I shall be picking your brains again in no time
 
Glad to be of help!
 

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