Too Much Filtering?

[manwithnofish]

I doubt whether a filter will outcompete the plants for nutrients

Agreed, but if one were to add two, three or four filters? I actually had some suggest that I add several filters, calling "Multi-staged" filtration. I know some folks have more than one. I was merely addressing the OP of "too much" filtration and thought that it should be discussed in context of a planted environment where the objective is to let the tank ecology work as much as possible without intervention. Probably not the situation that the OP was addressing, but none the less a case where one would consider less is better.

 

[SuperColey1]

Filter systems in aquariums (if overdone) become something the plants have to compete with (unless there is dosing going on).

I think you need to read Dave's first post again. He is using more filters than he needs to but 'with minimal media' He isn't using the filters for filtration really. He is using them for circulation. The minimal media is in there for backup and to remove any excess ammonia there may be.

Just out of curiosity what is your throughput and tank volume? and do you have normal media or is carbon included in there?

As for high dosing and EI and CO2. Doesn't matter. Overfilter (I use the term filter liberally) to your hearts content wether low or high tec. I have a hitec tank but I run a very lean dosing regime. My filter has 5x lph of my tank volume and it is 1/3 filled with media.

As for filtration removing the nutrients. Of course Carbon can remove all of them and zeolite will remopve ammonia but no serious aquascaper uses carbon!! Not that many non planted people do as it has a limited life. Most experienced people will leave it in the cabinet and only use it to remove meds or if there is some other problem. I doubt the 3 pieces of course foam occupying the top 2 trays of 4 in my filter catch many nutrients, yet I do have crystal clear water without the aid of any chemicals!!.

Diana is well respected in the planted community and is a pioneer on the low tec natural approach BUT she will admit to most that she does get algae (although small) and this is due to small localised ammonia spikes from deteriating leaves etc which the minimal media in a filter would've helped to remove. Also the 5 - 10x lph throughput will help spread and thus dilute.

I personally have an additional powerhead which is 400lph (2.66x tank volume) which I use in conjunction with my CO2 therefore you could say in a 125Ltr tank I have 1100lph of circulation (Filter = 700, Powerhead = 400)

Fish are OK, lovely colours, plants are great. Not suffering from defficiencies even though I lean dose.

Andy

 

[raptorrex]

manwithnofish
Are you saying that carbon filtering or other filter media (some remove phosphates, nitrates, etc) are not removing nutrients.

carbon is, in general, not used as a filtration media, unless you are needing to remove meds. as far as i know you should never use it in a planted tank. because, if any organic elements are removed by filtration, it would be the carbon that does it. not any other part of the media.

there may even be a case that the filter actually distributes the compounds needed for a healthy tank, by holding them centrally, and ensuring even distribution. (just a thought from me this one)

we would all do well to take notice of the comments from bignose, he is after all the only one, here, qualified to give the answer. also the only one to back up his comments with real understanding of the science. his comments are also well borne out by the experience of many members of TFF and others.

 

[andywg]

no serious aquascaper uses carbon!! Not that many non planted people do as it has a limited life.

Are you stating here that only people who do plants can be called aquascapers (and therefore serious aquascapers only exist within the planted community)?

I'm sure you aren't as that would be a very strange statement to make, but I just want to make sure.

 

[manwithnofish]

He isn't using the filters for filtration really. He is using them for circulation.

That sounds just like what I was pointing out from Diana's book. Again, I was simply injecting into the thread that a different point of view does exist, or maybe it's not that different after all. Perhaps a more appropriate way to say it would be "there is a way to do filtering wrong or badly". Or perhaps "what we load in our filters is more important than how many we have"? It's these finer details from knowledgeable people, where we beginners really learn.

As for Bignose, I don't have access to (or am not aware of) his experience and knowledge on the subject. I readily accept that everyone knows more than me, so what I'm saying is I can't pick up a book of his and read it. Therefore, we learn by exchanges such as this. I do regard Diana's book as a very significant source of information (for beginners and "experts" alike). I don't regard her book as a "position" on plant ecology but more as an interesting collection of data. From that, I guess everyone can draw their own conclusions.

As for the carbon, I just assumed many people used it (because my Fluval came packed with it). I took it out, but I didn't know that everyone else did. I have no experience, so I did it solely based on what I read in the book.

Please don't think that I am posting these comments to say "Ah Ha...you're wrong". It's just a point of discussion. It's all new to me and I am learning a lot by bouncing some of these ideas off others who have a vast amount of experience. The forum is a way to test some of those ideas and thoughts. Sometimes you get confirmation, other times you get tarred and feathered. Maybe I'm getting a little of both here.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

How much filtration is too much filtration depends on the type/s of fish you are keeping in the tank.
Some, like gourami's and betta's, prefer tanks with little or no water current, while others like many varieties of danio's and tetra's, love a good current, and other fish like hillstream loaches absolutely thrive in very strongly filtered tanks.

 

[SuperColey1]

Are you stating here that only people who do plants can be called aquascapers and therefore serious aquascapers only exist within the planted community

Actually I was meaning by Aquascapers - Planted, but now you point that out I never really thought about scaping being applicable outside of planted. Well pointed out there. I stand gladly corrected.

I will however draw the line at tanks with blue gravel containing skulls or crocodiles with bubbles coming out of them. That I will not call aquascaping. It is Aquamadness. he,he


Point taken manwithnofish. I understand where you're coming from. By the way. What is a man with no fish using a filter for? Or are you man with no filter too? lol
ha, ha

Andy

 

[manwithnofish]

I have a Fluval 405, the tank has been set up 3 weeks and I'm not sure what to do next. This is all new to me. The filter has four trays (each divided into two compartments). I think it came with BioMax in the two upper trays and Carbon in the bottom two trays. I took the carbon out of the very bottom tray and put the Fluval Pre-Media to just add mechanical filtering. It looks a lot like the BioMax ceramic rings. The next tray up, I put a bag of Fluval Clear-Max which says it "traps Phosphates, Nitrites, Nitrates" in one of the two components (half the tray) and left one bag of carbon in the other side or half. I put the Clear-Max in because I was having an algae problem and cycling my tank. I left one carbon bag in because I didn't have anything else to put in there and I felt that if I left one side empty, the water flow through the filter would not work very well. Somewhere I read that the carbon filtering can be bad for a planted tank so I want to remove it, when I can.

I'm starting the 4th week with the tank and it has really settled out nicely. I feel that I should make a change in the filter media soon by removing the last carbon bag and the Clear-max. I don't know what I should replace them with. Some have suggested that I should just add sponges in that tray but I'm not sure what they mean. I don't want to cause too much water flow resistance and burn up the filter motor or anything. I don't see sponges made for the filter on websites.

The tank will be built and maintained around the plants, so I'll choose fish that will work in that environment.

My tap water is from my well. pH seems to hold at 7.4. kH about 7 or 8 and gH is around 14 to 15.

What should I do from here?

I've copied this to a new thread under the Planted forum.

 

[andywg]

Actually I was meaning by Aquascapers - Planted, but now you point that out I never really thought about scaping being applicable outside of planted. Well pointed out there. I stand gladly corrected.

It is common among many people on this board. Likewise, very many people cannot consider a SW tank without keeping corals, though of the 5 tanks I have up and running, only one is a reef.

I will however draw the line at tanks with blue gravel containing skulls or crocodiles with bubbles coming out of them. That I will not call aquascaping. It is Aquamadness. he,he

But you know what, a large part of me does like those sorts of tanks. I have a couple of tanks to add to the main SW system, I could make one of them into a garish tank for a bright yellow frogfish to wander about in! I like the different look.

 

[rdd1952]

I'm not a big fan of the colored gravel either although I did see one tank with it that I thought was at least interesting. It was a divided 5 gallon with 3 bettas in it. The 3 sections each had a different color gravel (red, white & blue) and the bettas were also red, white and blue although they were in a section with a different color gravel than their color. They also had red, white and blue decorations for a quite patriotic American look.

 

[@ombomb]

They also had red, white and blue decorations for a quite patriotic American look.

hey, other countries did red white and blue long before you lot you know

 

[cowbla1]

I don't think it is possible, unless, your fish are stuck on it

 

[raptorrex]

How much filtration is too much filtration depends on the type/s of fish you are keeping in the tank.
Some, like gourami's and betta's, prefer tanks with little or no water current, while others like many varieties of danio's and tetra's, love a good current, and other fish like hillstream loaches absolutely thrive in very strongly filtered tanks.

would that not be considered as a water flow problem, as opposed to a case of excessive filtration? i understand they are connected, but the addition of a spray bar/bars may well reduce the tank current, whilst retaining a high level of filtration. or am i missing something?

 

[screamingdonkey]

They also had red, white and blue decorations for a quite patriotic American look.

hey, other countries did red white and blue long before you lot you know

Well said! I assume you were referring to the French

I've got to say that this thread has really made me smile - some very interesting thoughts/arguments on filtration, some of which is quite scientific, followed by talk about coloured gravel and skulls with bubbles coming out of them....

I too am not a fan of the coloured gravel and Castle Greyskull look but in the members tanks pics I do remember seeing a great tank with a Lego car in it and another one with Star Wars figures in that looked quite cool in an odd sort of way!

As for the OP: from a purely non-scientific aspect, I agree with what Tokis-Phoenix says - it depends on your stock

 

[Amunet]

As others have said... you can never really have too many filters, but the current all of the filters create might become a problem depending on the type of fish you have

We have 3 filters running in our 28 gallon