Too Many Dwarfs

[gouramimama]

Hello, I'm glad I came across this site, even though it is contributing to my feelings of being overwhelmed...

I had fish tanks in high school, and again about 11 years ago when I was newly married. My dad was a BIG fish "geek" when I was a baby. Lots of tanks, lots of fish, 30 years ago.

For various reasons, I have decided to get back into fish. My first tank (in high school) was a very cool community of about 30 fish, mainly breeding guppies, some platys, mollys, tetras etc. It was very successful. I quit when I went to college. Guppies again for my second tank.

I say this to explain my cluelessness. I knew nothing about "cycles" or "ph" or anything, because my dad probably did more for the tank than I remember, and I had easy fish.

This time I went to P*tsm**t and priced everything and the woman (with "30 years experience") sold me on the idea of Dwarf Gouramis. I set up a 20 gallon tank. I have 11 silk/plastic plants. 6 go to the top of the aquarium, 2 almost reach the top, and 3 are low in the front. I also have 2 plastic rock-caves for them to swim through.

Here's where I went wrong. My lfs "expert" tested my water after 1 day (I used my well water, very hard with no softener in it) and she said it was great. She sold me two Dwarf Gourami Males. They were looking good, so when I stopped back the next day for a hose to do my eventual water change, I told her my fish were doing great. I asked when I could add more fish and she said I could do so now. I bought 4 more dwarf gouramis and an emerald green catfish. (It's as big in length as the gouramis) I put them in my tank. My water was turning cloudy, which she said would happen and said it was natural. My gouramis kept going to the top for air, and were hanging out very still on the bottom. I interpreted this as stress.

I decided to look into it further, researched the internet, learned all about "cycling" and then went out and bought a good book. I read almost the whole thing yesterday. I tested my ammonia levels then (after I went out and spent a gob more money including a dip test kit) and my ammonia levels were at 0.50, ph was looking like it was more than 8.4, and the alkalinity was really high too. I tried to find advice somewhere on what to do. I talked to my dad. We decided a water change would be the best way to go. So I did a 30% water change, using bottled drinking water. I also turned the temperature up from 75 deg F to 80 F. I could care less about the cloudiness, if my fish are okay. What concerned me was the ph level and the ammonia.

Today, the tank is still a little cloudy, but the fish are acting soooo much better. I have one little blue that is looking a little stressed yet, but I'm going to give him some time. I think with the whole new home/water change thing he might need some r&r.

My current problem is that now I have 6 male dwarf gouramis in a 20 gallon tank. They aren't aggresive yet, but they are territorial, and chasing and posturing somewhat. The pet store expert said this would be okay. Obviously, I should have only gotten 2. Maybe even just one.

I just wanted a tank of pretty fish. I wanted to gradually ease my way into this hobby, we really do love fish. I'm excited because my husband (a man with no hobbies) is loving it too, and we could do this together. I've already spent more than $300 getting this tank going.

I see two options: 1) find new homes for at least 4 of my dwarf gouramis or 2) get another tank.

Any more advice?

Oh, and my test numbers still concern me. My ammonia is between 0.25-0.50 ppm, Nitrate 0-20 ppm, Nitrite 0 ppm, total Hardness 250-425 ppm, total Alkalinity is a blue that isn't even on my bottle. It looks like the color range goes from mustard yellow to green to teal. And mine is a clear "colonial" blue. Does that mean it is higher than I have an interpretation for? And my ph is bright hot pink which is 8.4 on my bottle, but maybe it's even higher?

I've been feeding the fish twice a day, miniscule amounts for fear of overfeeding and creating too much ammonia. The fish seem ravonous about plain old flakes, and I would say it's all gone within 3 minutes, but that can't be true, because the catfish it definitely rustling up stuff on the bottom.

Please tell me how freaked out I should be, and what I should do about it.

Thank you!

 

[gouramimama]

I should also mention:

My tank is a 20 gal long. About 30" by about 12" by about 12". I am using a Whisper 30gal outside filter with the foam pad and bio-bag. I put a small (3"?) airstone in as well. I do not have an under ground filter. I added Eco-start when I put up the tank, and a capfull a day for 4 days as the directions call for. I also added Stress Coat when I added the fish. I put 2 tablespoons Aquarium salt in too.

One of my Flame Gouramis seems to dart about more than the others. He seems to flick himself at some of the plants, but he has no white spots (ich) and is acting "normal" otherwise. Does that sound normal or not?

Thanks!

 

[sylvia]

Hi, welcome to the forums and welcome back to fishkeeping

Under the circumstances, the best thing you can do is return all the fish you have right now and start a fishless cycle. Cycling with fish can take almost 2 months to complete. As you can already see, even after being in the tank just a few days, the fish are stressed. Dwarf gouramies, especialy, are very fragile fish and highly prone to disease. They won't make it through the full cycle.

As you probably already know, ammonia and nitrIte are both deadly to fish. Until these are at 0, your fish are at risk. Even if they were to survive, these toxic substances will have caused them permanent damage and weakened their immune systems. Considering these gouramies are already quite weak from inbreeding, that's not going to help any.

Your pH at 8.4 is a little high but you'd be best off not trying to alter it. A steady, though high, pH is better than one that has been adjusted but is constantly fluctuating. Besides, there are plenty of fish that will thrive in that high pH and in hard water. Things like platies, mollies, guppies, endler's livebearers, swordtails, american-flag fish, bolivian rams, kribs/pulcher, three-spot gouramies, danios, many barbs, certain catfish and paradisefish can all deal with it. There are even rift lake cichlids that actualy require hard, alkaline water and there are some very small ones - such as shell-dwellers - that are wonderful to keep in a smaller tank. However, I'd suggest you carefuly research anything you take a liking to before buying it as several of the fish I've mentioned won't get on together or are aggressive.

Again though, let me emphasize that, as things stand, your tank is not ready for fish. I take it you understand the cycling process. You say you're using well water - test it and see what its parameters are before adding it to the tank. It may be that the pH is due to something in the tank or that your well water contains ammonia, nitrItes or nitrAtes itself (you can't realy do much about this but it's good to know). I'd like to add that, unless you are prepaired to always do so, don't use bottled water as you are likely to be causing changes in water chemistry that can prove more dangerous than sticking to the well water. Also, I've never dealt with well water myself - I assume it does not get treated with chlorine at any point so you aren't using a water conditioner/de-chlorinator?

Once you've returned the fish, a fishless cycle is easy and stress-free to perform. You simply need to add a source of ammonia to the tank and let it run (no need for water changes as there are no fish). Test regularly and see how the ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte readings change. Once your ammonia and nitrIte has dropped to 0, nitrAtes should be quite high. At this stage you should do a 90% water change to lower nitrAtes and then stop adding the ammonia source. Keep in mind that the ammonia source is added as a 'food' for the good bacteria found in your filter and gravel. Once you stop 'feeding' them, they'll begin dying off. As such, make sure you've added fish within 2 hours of having stopped the ammonia 'feeding'. In case you aren't aware of your options, the 'ammonia source' can be pure ammonia (such as that used for cleaning but make sure there are no added chemicals/perfumes), a frozen prawn or fish food (as these last 2 rot, ammonia is produced).

There are links in my signature you may find sueful. Particularly for the fishless cycle.

If you have ANY questions, feel free to ask.

Last thing - the 'emerald catfish' - can you describe it? It sound slike some kind of cory or brochis - most likely cory. Corydoras catfish are schooling fish so should not be kept alone. They also dislike salt (I notice you added some) as they have no scales. There is no need to add salt anyway.

Concerning your questions about the normality of the dwarf gourami's behaviour - no, it is not normal. Either the fish is beginning to catch ich or velvet or something else is irritating it - most likely the ammonia in the water.

 

[willtang3000]

dwarf gouramis are labyrinth which means they breathe air and they take gulps of air from the surface so theres nothing wrong just to let you know

 

[gouramimama]

My two Flame Red Dwarf Gouramis are becoming more aggressive. I called P*tsm*rt and they said they will take 4 back. I am going to show up with all six. I guess the catfish too. I think it is a Cory.

I will read up on a fishless cycle, thanks for the link.

If the gourami really does have ich, should I treat the tank after I remove them? Also, should I remove the plants? I'm hoping that the pet store gives me a refund. I really don't want to go back to them.

I just love the way the gouramis look, they are so pretty. I'm sad to see them go I know it's for the best.

What I'm looking for is a relatively easy community tank. My kids are loving the fish, especially my son. He is a very introverted 3 year old that loves numbers and has to have everything "just so". I am trying to encourage anything "artsy" or left-brained. My Hubby and I would like to make this a hobby and get another tank someday. Fish seem to be perfect because we can artfully arrange a tank and enjoy it's beauty, while the chemistry part speaks to the scientists inside the men in the family.

What fish would you recommend? (you can respond via email if this qualifys as a different topic)

Thank you so much!!!

 

[sylvia]

Hi again It's good to here you'll be doing a fishless cycle. That'll be best for everyone and it won't take anywhere near as long as a cycle with fish would.

For the ich (or in case it's there), first do a very large (80-90%) water change once you've removed the fish and then you can raise the temperature of the tank to about 86 deg F. At this temp, the ich's life cycle is sped up and, without a host, the ich should die. It's a good idea to also treat the tank with an ich med while you're at it (just in case). You can begin the fishless cycle at the same time. Once the ich treatment is complete, lower the temp. back down to about 77 deg F which is fine for most tropical fish and continue with the cycle. Keep in mind that most fish cannot deal with 86 deg F and the plants you have probably won't appreciate it either (but they should survive).

About stocking - first test your water (from the tap/well) and post your readings for pH. I want to determine whether the cause of your high pH is that it's like that naturaly or because of something in the tank that can be removed (rocks/gravel/sand can sometimes cause a rise in pH).
Your pH won't realy cause a huge problem to most fish but it's good to know regardless.

As things stand, once you've cycled the tank, there's lots of fish that would work but it's difficult to narrow them down without some input from you so I know what sort of fish you like...
You mentioned gouramies - I love them too. They are my favourite group of fish and pearl gouramies are my favourite species over-all. Dwarf gouramies are nice fish, but sensitive. I'd avoid them in a new tank.

Better options for you would be colisa chuna/sota (honey gourami), colisa fasciata (called the indian, striped, banded or 'giant' gourami) or colisa labiosa (the thick-lipped gourami). Any of these, if you can limmit yourself to just one species, would do well as a trio (1 male, 2 females) in your tank.

I would suggest familiarising yourself with their scientific names as common names are often used interchangeably and mis-leading. If you're curious to know exactly what I mean, feel free to ask and I'll give you some examples. For the time being, I'll avoid confusing you without cause

Other fish that you could consider are platies, swordtails or guppies. Guppies are somewhat fragile now-a-days and best avoided in new tanks but would make nice additions later on if you decide to stick with very peaceful, non-nippy species. All these livebearers do best kept in a ratio of 1 male to several females (typicaly 2 or 3). You can also keep single-sex groups but need to keep in mind that females grow larger than males and that keeping only females cannot guarantee you won't get fry as they can store sperm (from having mated at the store) for several months (something like 7 subsequent births!). Also, males don't always get along - swordtails especialy are best kept one male to a tank. You'll note I didn't suggest mollies - I'm just not a big fan of them because they don't seem to be big fans of gouramies In theory, mollies are also an option.

Cory catfish, such as the one it appears you have, also make good first fish. However, not all do. Blackfin (corydorsa leucomelas), bronze and the albino version of the bronze (both corydoras aenus) and peppered (corydoras paleatus) are some of the hardiest species. All of these do best in groups. A group of 4 minnimum is suggested.

There are also rainbowfish you could consider but only the smaller ones - such as melanotaenia praecox - the neon/blue/dwarf rainbowfish. As these are schooling fish, they need to be in groups of 6 minnimum - cosnidering they get to about 2", that doesn't realy leave all that much room for more but they are beautiful fish none the less and can work beautifuly if you pick the right tankmates.

If I were you, I'd get myself 4 cories (any of the 3 species I mentioned), a trio of swordtails (or platies) and a trio of colisa fasciata (banded gourami). That would be a fully stocked tank then and all the fish are hardy and tolerant of the pH.

Alternatively, perhaps a school of 6 praecox rainbows, 1 female three-spot gourami (trichogaster trichopterus - very hardy but can be aggressive; especialy the males) and a bristlenose pleco (plecostomus catfish generaly grow big but the bristlenose stays small - about 5" - and is also a wonderful algae eater).

Note on the three-spot: There are several color morphs, amongst these blue, gold, platinum, cosby, opaline and lavender. Don't be made to think they are different species. All can be very aggressive and are best avoided if you want to mix them with very peaceful fish. The rainbowfish should be able to handle a female and bristlenoses are generaly ignored by everyone anyway If you don't want to risk the possibility that you end up with an 'evil' three-spot, stick to either a colisa fasciata male or a colisa labiosa male.

Let me know if there are any other fish you are interested in. The above are just a few possibilities. Note that tetras and rasboras - a common group of fish - tend to preffer softer, more acidic water. Also, danios are great first fish - extremely hardy - but most species occupy the upper layers and, as such, compete with gouramies. It's best to get only one or the other if you are after a nicely balanced set-up.

I'd suggest a www.google.com image search if you want pictures of any of the above Also check the fish index in this forum for inspiration and, of course, use the search function in the gourami section if you are after more info on your gourami options.