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Tnc Fertiliser
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TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
I am not aware of countries which require any company to divulge trade secrets in order to sell their products across national boarders. While it may be required to divulge ingredients to some extent, depending on the given country, that is not the same thing as telling the exact form of the ingredients nor necessarily their percentages.
Nor do I believe that Tropica is willing to divulge sufficient information to anybody who asks for it in an email which would enable one to duplicate the exact formula in their basement. It is naive, in terms of business knowledge, to believe otherwise.
If it was that easy we would all have had the exact formula for Coca-Cola a long time ago.
Nor do I believe that Tropica is willing to divulge sufficient information to anybody who asks for it in an email which would enable one to duplicate the exact formula in their basement. It is naive, in terms of business knowledge, to believe otherwise.
If it was that easy we would all have had the exact formula for Coca-Cola a long time ago.
and i wonder where Pepsi came from...
It's a conspiracy i tell thee!
It's true though TTA, Tropica will tell you what they put in the fert, believe it or not, % and all. It has also been analysed by the fellows on the Barr report. Also, read what Firearms wrote, he really knows his stuff when it come to ferts
It's a conspiracy i tell thee!
It's true though TTA, Tropica will tell you what they put in the fert, believe it or not, % and all. It has also been analysed by the fellows on the Barr report. Also, read what Firearms wrote, he really knows his stuff when it come to ferts
My post might be invisible, or more likely un-readable
To summarize it though, coca-cola isn't a fertiliser and Tropica give their analysis as per fertilizer laws on the instruction leaflet - although it doesn't state if P and K are potassium oxide and phosphorous pentoxide or just P and K.
HTH
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
No- Coke is consumed by humans, obviously much less need to know what is in it than in an aquarium plant fertilizer. And no the post was neither invisible nor unreadable, I only found it a bit self serving and lacking in complete facts so I chose to ignore it. Yes Phosphate is stated based on P[sub]2[/sub]0[sub]5[/sub], but that means it is about 57.4% oxygen and 43.6% elemental phosphorus. To know the actual phosphorus in the fertilizer one must multiply the number for P[sub]2[/sub]0[sub]5[/sub] by .436 to get the actual P (having compensated for the weight of the O molecule).
The same applies to K[sub]2[/sub]O only here you multiply by .83 to strip out the O weight and arrive at the amount of elemental potassium. The result is if a given 30 lb bag of fertilizer is labelled 10-10-10, it contains 10 lbs of N, 10 lbs of P[sub]2[/sub]0[sub]5[/sub] and 10 pounds of K[sub]2[/sub]O. But it also contains 10 lbs of N, 4.3 lbs of elemental P and 8.3 lbs of elemental K. Labeling laws vary from country to country but in the UK it is permitted to list the elemental fractions for NPK. They must be listed in parentheses after the traditional NPK values. Here in the U.S., the makers are afraid that listing things this way would leave the impression that buyers are getting less fertilizer for the money (talk about marketing).
The recipe I tried for TPN on the Barr site was not very good. I went out and bought more Tropica after using it for a while. I think the failed recipe came from the James site. So I have to say my faith in that site is not very high. And having read the rest of it, I would rather pay more for the the real thing.
But I am amazed to be told that all I have to do to mass produce and sell a cheaper generic version of Tropica's world renown fertilizers is to ask them to hand me the exact formula and ingredients they use and they will send them to me. Maybe I should email them explaining I wish to produce and sell a generic version of their fertilizers and would they please be so kind as to tell me exactly what is in it and how to make it. And if you believe they are going to tell me, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn I don't use much any more and I would be willing to sell it to you at a substantial discount if you pay cash.
And I am amazed at how people can mention marketing and then assume Tropica isn't giving out just enough information to be able to say they want you to know what is in their product but not quite enough to be able to reproduce it accurately. Nah, they would never do that.
But enough of this foolishness lets looks at some facts. According to the Tropica site the basic difference between the Plant Nutrition and the Plant Nutrition+ are the macros- They add N and P and boost the K if I am understanding right.
Here is what the insert for my TPN says:
Declaration
W/W% (Gew/Gew%), P/P%:
K 0.8%, Mg 0,39%, S 0.91%, B 0.004%, Cu 0.006%, Fe 0.07%,
Mn 0.04%, Mo 0.002%, Zn 0.003%
HEEDTA, DTPA, E123
So how much of the final three items and what form? Can you say with 100% certainty there is nothing else in the bottle? What form is the copper in? Are the %s listed based on weight or volume? Does the red dye (E123 aka Amaranth Dye) provide anything to plants besides coloring the solution? Are there any other ingredients which do not have to be listed but which may have an effect? There is a lot of liquid in the bottle, is it ro water, is it deionized?
But more importantly why do most of the numbers on my TPN sheet not match the ones Ianho listed for TPN+ in his comparison to TNC (I borrowed his list but substituted TPN and its numbers for the original TNC ones).? The macro numbers should differ, but not the traces etc.
% / TPN+ v TPN
N = 1.34 v n/a
P = 0.1 v n/a
K = 3.89 v 0.80
Mg = 0.39 v 0.39
B = 0.01 v 0.004
Cu = 0.002 v 0.006
Fe = 0.08 v 0.07
Mn = 0.02 v 0.04
Mo = 0.002 v 0.002
Zn = 0.01 v 0.002
S= 0.? v 0.91
About the only two that are identical are for Mg and Mo. Since I have the insert in front of me should I assume that Ianho's list got it wrong or should I conclude that TPN and TPN+ use different formulations for the trace part? And why is there S in TPN but none in TPN+? In fact S appears to be the single largest ingredient listed for TPN. This doesn't seem logical to me either. Did the S get omitted by accident (I don't use the + only the trace mix)? I checked out the TNC site and neither of their plant liquids contains any S at all. I wonder why they don't since after NPK it is a pretty essential element for plant. In Australia I believe they list N-P-K-S on fertilizers.
The same applies to K[sub]2[/sub]O only here you multiply by .83 to strip out the O weight and arrive at the amount of elemental potassium. The result is if a given 30 lb bag of fertilizer is labelled 10-10-10, it contains 10 lbs of N, 10 lbs of P[sub]2[/sub]0[sub]5[/sub] and 10 pounds of K[sub]2[/sub]O. But it also contains 10 lbs of N, 4.3 lbs of elemental P and 8.3 lbs of elemental K. Labeling laws vary from country to country but in the UK it is permitted to list the elemental fractions for NPK. They must be listed in parentheses after the traditional NPK values. Here in the U.S., the makers are afraid that listing things this way would leave the impression that buyers are getting less fertilizer for the money (talk about marketing).
The recipe I tried for TPN on the Barr site was not very good. I went out and bought more Tropica after using it for a while. I think the failed recipe came from the James site. So I have to say my faith in that site is not very high. And having read the rest of it, I would rather pay more for the the real thing.
But I am amazed to be told that all I have to do to mass produce and sell a cheaper generic version of Tropica's world renown fertilizers is to ask them to hand me the exact formula and ingredients they use and they will send them to me. Maybe I should email them explaining I wish to produce and sell a generic version of their fertilizers and would they please be so kind as to tell me exactly what is in it and how to make it. And if you believe they are going to tell me, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn I don't use much any more and I would be willing to sell it to you at a substantial discount if you pay cash.
And I am amazed at how people can mention marketing and then assume Tropica isn't giving out just enough information to be able to say they want you to know what is in their product but not quite enough to be able to reproduce it accurately. Nah, they would never do that.
But enough of this foolishness lets looks at some facts. According to the Tropica site the basic difference between the Plant Nutrition and the Plant Nutrition+ are the macros- They add N and P and boost the K if I am understanding right.
Here is what the insert for my TPN says:
Declaration
W/W% (Gew/Gew%), P/P%:
K 0.8%, Mg 0,39%, S 0.91%, B 0.004%, Cu 0.006%, Fe 0.07%,
Mn 0.04%, Mo 0.002%, Zn 0.003%
HEEDTA, DTPA, E123
So how much of the final three items and what form? Can you say with 100% certainty there is nothing else in the bottle? What form is the copper in? Are the %s listed based on weight or volume? Does the red dye (E123 aka Amaranth Dye) provide anything to plants besides coloring the solution? Are there any other ingredients which do not have to be listed but which may have an effect? There is a lot of liquid in the bottle, is it ro water, is it deionized?
But more importantly why do most of the numbers on my TPN sheet not match the ones Ianho listed for TPN+ in his comparison to TNC (I borrowed his list but substituted TPN and its numbers for the original TNC ones).? The macro numbers should differ, but not the traces etc.
% / TPN+ v TPN
N = 1.34 v n/a
P = 0.1 v n/a
K = 3.89 v 0.80
Mg = 0.39 v 0.39
B = 0.01 v 0.004
Cu = 0.002 v 0.006
Fe = 0.08 v 0.07
Mn = 0.02 v 0.04
Mo = 0.002 v 0.002
Zn = 0.01 v 0.002
S= 0.? v 0.91
About the only two that are identical are for Mg and Mo. Since I have the insert in front of me should I assume that Ianho's list got it wrong or should I conclude that TPN and TPN+ use different formulations for the trace part? And why is there S in TPN but none in TPN+? In fact S appears to be the single largest ingredient listed for TPN. This doesn't seem logical to me either. Did the S get omitted by accident (I don't use the + only the trace mix)? I checked out the TNC site and neither of their plant liquids contains any S at all. I wonder why they don't since after NPK it is a pretty essential element for plant. In Australia I believe they list N-P-K-S on fertilizers.
hey TTA, i love a hot discussion on aquarium fertilisers (we are soo cool! lol) 
Now back to the importantness...
This is what companies like TNC are doing, and IMO/IME doing well. I know of people, have also read people using the TNC stuff and saying they have had no problems with it and things have continued as with the TPN+. I personally use TPN+ now, i have used the ADA brightly special lights (ada's version), and yes it did the job, but left my wallet a lot lighter. TBH i'm not sure whether theres THAT much money to be made on aquarium ferts alone, this is probably another reason why companies aren't just concentrating on ferts, another reason is that TPN+ (as you're aware) contains N&P, you'll struggle to find any off the shelf fert with N&P in and in this day and age i'm really surprised JBL, TETRA, Hagen, Seachem etc etc, haven't taken advantage of this gap in the market. Especially Seachem, they have a great name in aquarium fertilisation!
agreed, they don't give step by step instructions, but neither does Dominos pizza, but we know how to make one. It tastes the same as well. But they wouldn't give step by step instructions, they can and are willing to give out ingredients though. As your may be aware, but TPN+ works on the same priciple as EI...add to much and the plants don't want or need for anything.
Now back to the importantness...This is what companies like TNC are doing, and IMO/IME doing well. I know of people, have also read people using the TNC stuff and saying they have had no problems with it and things have continued as with the TPN+. I personally use TPN+ now, i have used the ADA brightly special lights (ada's version), and yes it did the job, but left my wallet a lot lighter. TBH i'm not sure whether theres THAT much money to be made on aquarium ferts alone, this is probably another reason why companies aren't just concentrating on ferts, another reason is that TPN+ (as you're aware) contains N&P, you'll struggle to find any off the shelf fert with N&P in and in this day and age i'm really surprised JBL, TETRA, Hagen, Seachem etc etc, haven't taken advantage of this gap in the market. Especially Seachem, they have a great name in aquarium fertilisation!
agreed, they don't give step by step instructions, but neither does Dominos pizza, but we know how to make one. It tastes the same as well. But they wouldn't give step by step instructions, they can and are willing to give out ingredients though. As your may be aware, but TPN+ works on the same priciple as EI...add to much and the plants don't want or need for anything.
I'm not going to go through everything, but you obviously know your fertiliser chemistry so will be aware that given an analysis there is only a finite number of products available to output that analysis in the correct ratio.
Again as you've mentioned there are some simple tricks available to attempt to mask the exact formula, not including Sulphur is one of them.
To just touch on the coke thing again, I'm sure they would be much happier to not to have to comply with fertilizer laws but they choose too. Again, the laws were brought in to stop fertiliser companies selling magic moon dust....
To touch on the failed James' recipe I would like to know which one you used. In the UK it's hard to make the real deal for a civilian because you can't buy ammonium nitrate in less then a ton because it's fun stuff. But you should find if you have a play with the figures and maybe use a pinch of urea [I can't remember] they should give you a good approximation (moon dust aside)
To finish - With the micros you do have a good point, Tropica declare at least 2 different chelators which would imply it has a good stability range over a wider pH. I'd wager that's where they spend the cash. Don't make the mistake of thinking because something is cheaper or more expensive it can't be as good though, or we'd all be dosing Plantamin
So, in conclusion if we draw on Liebig's law of the minimum we can safely say that as long as you have everything in there the plants will grow pretty well....and I'm sure they have everything in there.
And I'm pretty sure there is no magic moon dust in TNC or TPN...or is there?
EDIT: In other news, test kits have been found to be worth their weight in gold and are supper accurate.....
Again as you've mentioned there are some simple tricks available to attempt to mask the exact formula, not including Sulphur is one of them.
To just touch on the coke thing again, I'm sure they would be much happier to not to have to comply with fertilizer laws but they choose too. Again, the laws were brought in to stop fertiliser companies selling magic moon dust....
To touch on the failed James' recipe I would like to know which one you used. In the UK it's hard to make the real deal for a civilian because you can't buy ammonium nitrate in less then a ton because it's fun stuff. But you should find if you have a play with the figures and maybe use a pinch of urea [I can't remember] they should give you a good approximation (moon dust aside)
To finish - With the micros you do have a good point, Tropica declare at least 2 different chelators which would imply it has a good stability range over a wider pH. I'd wager that's where they spend the cash. Don't make the mistake of thinking because something is cheaper or more expensive it can't be as good though, or we'd all be dosing Plantamin
So, in conclusion if we draw on Liebig's law of the minimum we can safely say that as long as you have everything in there the plants will grow pretty well....and I'm sure they have everything in there.
And I'm pretty sure there is no magic moon dust in TNC or TPN...or is there?
EDIT: In other news, test kits have been found to be worth their weight in gold and are supper accurate.....
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
Firearms, this is my thread about my experience. You actually posted in it
What Am I Replicating?
In rereading it I may not have used a James page formula, I am not sure. But it was a formula taken from Tom Barr's Forums, one with plenty of discussion plus comments by Tom. While I have a lot of respect for Mr. Barr's work with aquatic plants, I am not one who considers him a plant god.
The thing is, while I have and continue to maintain a number of planted tank, I am still a fish keeper first and foremost. I do plants in the service of creating better environs for my fish. My initial foray into plants started when I learned live plants would let me keep more fish in my tank. It only grew as I came to understand that plants can make cycling go from much faster to not even needed. And they became essential parts of some tanks as I became involved with spawning fish. My first fry were born into the first tank I fishlessly cyled. The eggs came in on plants moved from my first tank and managed to hatch and survive despite my dosing ammonia daily (zebra danios).
So most of my knowledge on the plants has come to me on an as needed basis, not as an area of general study. Unlike many plant folks I have no problems using more expensive prepared ferts. Firstly, I can afford them but more importantly, not dealing with mixing stuff, and all that entails, is just one more piece of work I do not need to do and to worry about. My attempt at diy TPN is my only use of dry ferts save for the potassium nitrate which I only use in my one high light, co2 added tank.
What Am I Replicating?
In rereading it I may not have used a James page formula, I am not sure. But it was a formula taken from Tom Barr's Forums, one with plenty of discussion plus comments by Tom. While I have a lot of respect for Mr. Barr's work with aquatic plants, I am not one who considers him a plant god.
The thing is, while I have and continue to maintain a number of planted tank, I am still a fish keeper first and foremost. I do plants in the service of creating better environs for my fish. My initial foray into plants started when I learned live plants would let me keep more fish in my tank. It only grew as I came to understand that plants can make cycling go from much faster to not even needed. And they became essential parts of some tanks as I became involved with spawning fish. My first fry were born into the first tank I fishlessly cyled. The eggs came in on plants moved from my first tank and managed to hatch and survive despite my dosing ammonia daily (zebra danios).
So most of my knowledge on the plants has come to me on an as needed basis, not as an area of general study. Unlike many plant folks I have no problems using more expensive prepared ferts. Firstly, I can afford them but more importantly, not dealing with mixing stuff, and all that entails, is just one more piece of work I do not need to do and to worry about. My attempt at diy TPN is my only use of dry ferts save for the potassium nitrate which I only use in my one high light, co2 added tank.
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