Thinking About Marine

[Rorie]

I am pretty well sussed with freshwater - some of you may see that i am developing my breeding tanks into a pretty big set up! I know what i am doing inside out, through reading, asking and trial and error.

I am not sure if i will have a show tank in the house - my 5 ft tank is in the garage waiting for a decision to be made! But then i thought, oh, maybe a small marine tank.

All i know is that 1) they are a lot more expensive and 2) you need a lot more kit and 3) you need more filtration?

I have read all the getting started bits and bobs, but still have some questions

1) What is it that makes running a marine tank more expensive? I know the fish cost a lot more for a start
2) Is the running of the tank similar to FW at all, or is it a totally different ball game?
3) What are the main differences (if its easy to write?). From my understanding the LR acts as a filter, but you still need filtration. Why do you need more filtration?
4) How hard is LR to keep? I tried my hand at an advanced planted FW (pressurised CO2 etc) and i didn't like it! way too much tweaking and playing about! Is this similar?

What would be a good starting off package? When i started FW i got a tank which had everything in it to ease the pain. Now i even make my own kit, have the most advanced and also the most basic DIY kit as i know it inside out. So is there any decent kits out there that are good for beginners? What cost should i expect to get going on a 3-4 ft tank?

 

[mattyeatsmatts]

Good luck on your new venture

 

[deftuch]

To be honest mate. It isnt all that. As long as you keep the salt levels bang on and research everything you put in the tank. For example. Coral. Not all coral is suitable for fish. Some fish require specific coral. I.e. invertabre. If you do your research first mate. You will be fine. Id start with a 100 litre. Even though i just said what i said. Marine tanks is something i will never own.

 

[Rorie]

100L is where i started with FW, good volume...but quickly out grew that. I believe you cannot put nearly as much in a SW tank in the way of fish per space? So maybe i need a bigger tank than 100L as i'd out grow that super quick?

 

[deftuch]

its up to you mate. but remeber its your money. and your risk. you should defo start small though to give you a bit of experience. its tempting to go bigger so you can have bigger fish but it defo shoudnt be rushed. good luck whatever you decide to do. only you can decide if im honest.

 

[betta fish]

I have a 90l nano that I converted from fresh to marine, it's my first marine tank and has been up and running for a year now and I love it!! my biggest short term expense was of course the live rock, but once you have it and it's matured that is it.
Long term the salt has been expensive to buy, I use red sea coral pro and spend approx £20 every 3 months as I do a 10% water change every week, and then there is the RO water, again one of the bigger purchases but an ro unit is a must to get good water unlike fresh water where you can use tap water with added dechlorinator! I had to buy a booster pump too as my pressure was dismal, there is a fair bit of waste water producing pure ro too, and yes all marine critters are more expensive than fresh water! there is more equipment such as a wave maker and skimmer as well as the usual heater, more work is involved when preparing the water as the salt has to be premixed and bought up to temperature and then tested with a little gadget called a refractometer that measures salinity to make sure it matches the tank, I also test my ro with a tds meter to make sure it reads 0. I do far more tests and have spent much more money on this tank than I have ever done with fresh water but I don't regret it for one minute! Your live rock and your sand are the two main filters in the tank, a skimmer will also help out in this respect, you really don't need any other filter as long as you have good flow around the rock. Live rock in itself is not difficult to keep, just needs light, flow and a good salt mix to produce lovely coralline, corals on the other hand... hard corals need halogen lighting which are tough on the electric bill I only keep softies for this reason! fish are fairly straight forward as are the critters that you introduce to keep the tank clean such as turbo snails and hermits etc, good luck in your salty adventure you won't regret it, and just remember go slow! if not for the tanks sake for your pocket!!

 

[Rorie]

I have a 90l nano that I converted from fresh to marine, it's my first marine tank and has been up and running for a year now and I love it!! my biggest short term expense was of course the live rock, but once you have it and it's matured that is it.
Long term the salt has been expensive to buy, I use red sea coral pro and spend approx £20 every 3 months as I do a 10% water change every week, and then there is the RO water, again one of the bigger purchases but an ro unit is a must to get good water unlike fresh water where you can use tap water with added dechlorinator! I had to buy a booster pump too as my pressure was dismal, there is a fair bit of waste water producing pure ro too, and yes all marine critters are more expensive than fresh water! there is more equipment such as a wave maker and skimmer as well as the usual heater, more work is involved when preparing the water as the salt has to be premixed and bought up to temperature and then tested with a little gadget called a refractometer that measures salinity to make sure it matches the tank, I also test my ro with a tds meter to make sure it reads 0. I do far more tests and have spent much more money on this tank than I have ever done with fresh water but I don't regret it for one minute! Your live rock and your sand are the two main filters in the tank, a skimmer will also help out in this respect, you really don't need any other filter as long as you have good flow around the rock. Live rock in itself is not difficult to keep, just needs light, flow and a good salt mix to produce lovely coralline, corals on the other hand... hard corals need halogen lighting which are tough on the electric bill I only keep softies for this reason! fish are fairly straight forward as are the critters that you introduce to keep the tank clean such as turbo snails and hermits etc, good luck in your salty adventure you won't regret it, and just remember go slow! if not for the tanks sake for your pocket!!

Good to hear your experience - thanks!

In the way of RO is won't really be a problem as i have my RO system for my discus which will be on the go in the fish room. Salt - £30 every 3 months doesn't sound TOO bad i guess - when i had my planted tank i was buying endless amounts of rubbish to get it working better haha.

So, the live rock - can you make that into a nice arrangement, or does it need to go in a certain way? I assume its a boring colour and its the coral thats the nice stuff?

If i start with live rock, can i add coral later if i want the challenge, or is the set up different?

I am confused as to all the equipment - i have read the sepals on here, but the penny still has not dropped. skimmers, Refugiums. reactors, and sump tanks - am i right that you don't need all of these, or you need some but not others? I know a sump tank allows you to hide equipment and give you a bigger filtration area....but if you don't have a sump, where is the filtration (other than the live rock).

 

[betta fish]

Hi, with the live rock you can arrange it anyway you like, just keep it off touching the glass so usually it is arranged in the middle, larger at bottom and smaller at top keeping quite an open structure to allow the fish to swim through and good flow, it actually looks very nice once matured in a few months as the pink and red coralline begins to grow on it, corals can be added later and arranged on the rock and sand bed, you can also use reef putty to secure the corals to the rock and even the rock to the rock to prevent a rock slide.
As far as the filtration is concerned it really is the live rock, skimmer and sand bed for me, I did have an internal filter in there for a little while with live rock rubble inside it but really it was more for extra flow around the tank than anything else. I also have marine algae such as chaeto to take care of nitrates and phosphates, bearing in mind I only keep easy corals and softies and I keep up with my weekly water changes of 10% without fail.
P.s I love the African Grey in your avatar, your bird?

 

[Rorie]

So is live rock expensive? I know that larger tanks are more stable than smaller tanks, so would i be right in saying that if i can afford the initial up front cost of a bigger tank, then the only extra cost is the live rock?

Yup, the grey is one of two parrots we own. She's about 15 months old. A pain the the a** sometimes haha. She's really bright - taught her a load of tricks already. But the negative effect of this is that when i'm watching tv she sings and performs in competition with the tv haha. Our White Capped Pionus is 7 years old - he's the opposite of the grey - quiet, relaxed, just wants cuddles all the time!

 

[ainsy]

Live-live rock is expensive, dead live rock is cheaper - but takes time to become live again.

No the ongoing costs of marine tanks are MUCH higher than freshwater. The salt for each water change will be higher with a larger tank. If you plan to keep corals the real killer will be electricity. I am sure many people keep corals alive with lower levels of lighting (even LED's now!) BUT IME to be really successful you will need high intensity lighting = metal Halide Which costs an absolute fortune to run - even a small halide light will be 150w (which I know is the same as a small heater - but it will be on constantly for 8ish hours/day) Factor in that these halide bulbs wear out and need changing every 6 months at a cost of £60ish. Also if you want to keep coral there will be a whole host of chemical & potions to keep all of levels up.

You said that you didn't enjoy the tweaking that goes with a high tech trop - well there is soooo much more tweaking with a marine!

I am not trying to put you off but if I were you I would get a small nano with some live rock, very few fish (stocking levels need to be much, much lower than fresh water) and some easy to keep corals. If you find you enjoy it you can always upgrade later, if you can bare the extra costs.

HTH

 

[Rorie]

Thanks for the replies and input.

I went to my LFS today and i was chatting away with the guy for about an hour asking loads of questions.

He suggested that to buy a 90l tank would cost me several hundred pounds. We discusses a few options given my circumstances (i.e. having so much equipment already). The best solution for me seems to be keeping my existing 5 foot glass aquarium, changing the media in my eheim filters to that suitable for marine tanks, change the lighting tubes in my over the tank lights and away we go.

He suggested i buy sand and a quantity of live sand. He too suggested that it'd be best buying lava rock and building the bacteria rather than buying live rock.

He said i would not need a skimmer or any other equipment further to what i have - in replacement for a skimmer he suggested putting pads in my filter which do the same job.

When would i choose to use a sump rather than external filters?

Do i need special over the tank lighting units, or can i just use my existing ones? If i need special ones, what is different?

ainsy -

I am happy with mixing water, checking it and ensuring its all at the right levels etc, so if we take that out the question, what tweaking is needed? From what i understand, if i have good flow, feed the corals with a solution, what else is there to muck about with?

I am reluctant to buy a small tank due to 1) being unstable 2) the expense of a new tank and equipment when i have a load of stuff already.

Thanks

 

[ainsy]

Ok - I take your points about small tanks being less stable and using equipment that you already have - this will save you some £££.

The tweaking is never ending such as ensuring that your calcium levels are kept high enough (as many, but not all, corals require it grow) Then you will find that you need to keep your eye on potassium - as they are inextricably linked and you need to keep potassium up or you won't be able to increase the calcium. There are other elements that are also needed. You will of course need test kits for all of these things - not like ferts in a fresh tank where you can just dose a set amount each day/week.

I don't agree with some of the info that your LFS gave you.

Firstly you don't need any live sand - it is IME an unnecessary expense - if you put 'dead' live sand in it will soon become 'live' live sand (if that makes sense!)

There are many things described as 'lava rock' and non of them are as good as the real thing - they are either a land based rock which is too dense and not porous enough to be successful as a filter or as a by-product of an industrial process and considering how sensitive coral is I wouldn't want anything like that near it!
If you don't want the expense of 'live' live rock then you would be better buying 'dead' live rock (often known as 'reef bones') and just buy 1 small piece of 'live' stuff - it will soon seed the rest (or even ask your LFS for some of the crud from the bottom of their live rock tanks - it will do the same job!)

Whilst it is possible to get away with not using a skimmer you would need to use one of the other methods of removing pollutants - these are a considerable amount of genuine live rock with good flow over/around it OR some sort of nutrient export system (you could investigate algae turf scrubbers if you are interested) BUT IMO the best way of removing the waste is a skimmer. Just google 'protein skimmer waste' or 'skimmer waste cup' and you will see what I mean - they really remove some thick, black, nasty looking sludge from water that looks crystal clear to the naked eye! There is no pad for a filter that will remove this sort of waste - you could use carbon in addition to it though.

The point of a sump is to increase water volume and increase water flow through your tank and therefore live rock. Many people do keep successful marine tanks on external filters though - you will just need to be scrupulous about your maintenance because they can easily become nitrate factories which will kill most coral.

Your lighting depends upon what you want to keep. If you just want fish with live rock then you can get away with whatever T5's you have already got. If you want corals then you will need more intense lighting. You can still use T5's but you will need enough of them for high WPG - this will be OK for soft coral but not enough for hard corals which need really intense lighting - the Metal Halide that I mentioned in the previous post.

Hope this helps & if you have any more questions don't hesitate to ask!

 

[Rorie]

I appreciate all input, both positive and negitive. But i will interrogate the bits that contradict what others say or that doesnt make sense to me. I like to form my own opionions, so please dont read anything as disagreement or misbelief of what you write....

Ok - I take your points about small tanks being less stable and using equipment that you already have - this will save you some £££.

Saving money is always good!

The tweaking is never ending such as ensuring that your calcium levels are kept high enough (as many, but not all, corals require it grow)

Could i get away with not having hard(?) corals? Keeping it simple?

Then you will find that you need to keep your eye on potassium - as they are inextricably linked and you need to keep potassium up or you won't be able to increase the calcium. There are other elements that are also needed.

Again, is this just linked to hard/special corals?

You will of course need test kits for all of these things - not like ferts in a fresh tank where you can just dose a set amount each day/week.

Testing is not a problem to me. Is it easy enough to calculate what needs to be dosed given the readings?

I don't agree with some of the info that your LFS gave you.

Not many people agree with LFS....but there is also a lot of OTT info on forums when keeping it simple is often the best answer

Firstly you don't need any live sand - it is IME an unnecessary expense - if you put 'dead' live sand in it will soon become 'live' live sand (if that makes sense!)

I did think this! He is the one that first told me not to bother with live rock....but then said to get live sand!

There are many things described as 'lava rock' and non of them are as good as the real thing - they are either a land based rock which is too dense and not porous enough to be successful as a filter or as a by-product of an industrial process and considering how sensitive coral is I wouldn't want anything like that near it!

If you don't want the expense of 'live' live rock then you would be better buying 'dead' live rock (often known as 'reef bones') and just buy 1 small piece of 'live' stuff - it will soon seed the rest (or even ask your LFS for some of the crud from the bottom of their live rock tanks - it will do the same job!)

He said specifically that it is lava rock which is extremely porus unlike others, so maybe its the real thing

Whilst it is possible to get away with not using a skimmer you would need to use one of the other methods of removing pollutants - these are a considerable amount of genuine live rock with good flow over/around it OR some sort of nutrient export system (you could investigate algae turf scrubbers if you are interested) BUT IMO the best way of removing the waste is a skimmer. Just google 'protein skimmer waste' or 'skimmer waste cup' and you will see what I mean - they really remove some thick, black, nasty looking sludge from water that looks crystal clear to the naked eye! There is no pad for a filter that will remove this sort of waste - you could use carbon in addition to it though.

He did show me a specific product to put in my filter which needs replaced every 3 months. If i go for an external filter and decide to get a protein skimmer, where would i put it?

The point of a sump is to increase water volume and increase water flow through your tank and therefore live rock. Many people do keep successful marine tanks on external filters though - you will just need to be scrupulous about your maintenance because they can easily become nitrate factories which will kill most coral.

What does having more water do? Just help the stability of the tank? you say it increases water flow which also increases live rock....how does it increase flow? And how does that effect my live rock? If i go for external filters, i guess just the usual clean out is required?

Your lighting depends upon what you want to keep. If you just want fish with live rock then you can get away with whatever T5's you have already got. If you want corals then you will need more intense lighting. You can still use T5's but you will need enough of them for high WPG - this will be OK for soft coral but not enough for hard corals which need really intense lighting - the Metal Halide that I mentioned in the previous post.

I dont think i was specific enough - i have two lighting units which gave me high WPG for tropical. What is 'high' for marine? I only plan on keeping soft corals as above.
And what is the difference with a 'metal halide' compared to just a lighting unit? I will need to replace the tubes obviously, but maybe there will not be enough wattage...

Hope this helps & if you have any more questions don't hesitate to ask!

Questions asked

 

[ainsy]

Could i get away with not having hard(?) corals? Keeping it simple?

Absolutely!! yes this would be the best way to start - some softies and small compatible fish

Again, is this just linked to hard/special corals?

No all corals and fish will require you to keep things at the same level that they are in the sea (although you may 'get away' with this through regular water changes) but you need to be aware that some of these levels can be prone to crashing - so need testing for.

Testing is not a problem to me. Is it easy enough to calculate what needs to be dosed given the readings?

Yes if you are happy with testing - what I was trying to point out is that you will need a load of extra tests that all cost the £££

I did think this! He is the one that first told me not to bother with live rock....but then said to get live sand!

He said specifically that it is lava rock which is extremely porus unlike others, so maybe its the real thing

This is mainly why I disagree with what he told you. Live sand is snake oil (I kept several reef tanks over a period of 15 years and there was NO benefit in the ones that I used this in versus the ones that I didn't. I think you will find that if you talk to enough marine keepers they will say that there is no substitute for live rock - I would personally go with the option I described - get the reef bones and after a short while it will populate with bacteria (just like a freshwater filter)

He did show me a specific product to put in my filter which needs replaced every 3 months. If i go for an external filter and decide to get a protein skimmer, where would i put it?

Once again snake oil IMHO.

What does having more water do? Just help the stability of the tank? you say it increases water flow which also increases live rock....how does it increase flow? And how does that effect my live rock? If i go for external filters, i guess just the usual clean out is required?

More water does = more stability & the side benefit is it will allow you to increase your fish stock. It increases water flow by having water overflow from the tank into the sump and then pumping it back. I don't mean to put you of the canister route - many people do use it successfully.

I dont think i was specific enough - i have two lighting units which gave me high WPG for tropical. What is 'high' for marine? I only plan on keeping soft corals as above.
And what is the difference with a 'metal halide' compared to just a lighting unit? I will need to replace the tubes obviously, but maybe there will not be enough wattage...

You will need to seek somebody else's advice over this - I only ever used metal halides - but I am aware that you can keep corals under T5 that aren't too light dependant.

Questions asked

Glad to be of assistance! I am glad that you like to ask around - it shows your dedication and how sensible you are. If you want further evidence of what I have told you I can point you in the direction of marine specific forum that I used to frequent (but won't post it as I wouldn't want the mods to think I was trying to advertise it!)

 

[Rorie]

Sure, PM me the details of the other forum if people on there are helpful

I am open to the idea of a sump if it means i will have a better running tank or more flexible. I can sell my external filters and get some pennies for that - i can make a sump for about £30 so thats not a problem.

What % of the tank size should the sump be? Or the bigger the better?

So, the golden question....how much does a 5ftx2ftx1.5ft marine tank cost to run week to week for salt etc? The guy in the shop quoted me about £450 to get kitted out with sand, lava rock, bacteria bottles, media for my filters and some florescent tubes.

Ainsy, you make it sound REALLY expensive..... so some form of figure to this would be great if you could