The stuff they never put on labels

[seangee]

TL;DR

It seems that summer is on its way. At least my tanks have already reached a temp of 27C despite the fact that June has only just begun - I turned my heaters down to 23 a month ago and the normal range in my tanks is 24-25.5 when the heaters are in use.

One day last week I thought I spotted cory eggs on the glass of the community tank, but it was about 5m away and my eyes aren't that good. On closer inspection it turns out that I have a fresh crop of MTS. As the temps rise their reproduction increases exponentially and there is nothing you can do about it. If anything I am a chronic underfeeder and over water changer. Last night I picked around 200 of the little <expletive deleted> off the glass. I am not actually a hater - I would just like a lot less of them. When I introduced them (over 20 years ago) I believed the advice that you could control the population by avoiding overfeeding and maintaining a clean substrate!

Seperately I am coming to the conclusion that I should nuke the nano tank. The fish in there are spawning almost continuously but I never get fry. I know the fish themselves are largely to blame but there are lots of places in the tank where the fish can't reach. SInce this tank is home to only 7 fish an attracive option would be to remove the fish. Then I could nuke the tank, do several 100% water changes and put the fish back after a few weeks.

So I turned to my friendly search engine and the top solution seemed to be eSHa Gastropex. OK so that's copper sulphate. A bit more searching and as is so often the case a wide range of responses in product reviews ...

• Killed all my snails ---> Never touched my snails
• Did not harm my fish ---> killed all my fish
• Did not harm my shrimps --- killed all my shrimps
• Did not affect my cycle ---> destroyed my filter

Happy to take the last one with a pinch of salt. A lot of decomposing snails will create a lot of ammonia if you don't remove them. There did appear to be a trend that the more snails it killed the more likely it was to have other effects, but why such a huge discrepancy?

I had a theory so i invoked the friendly local AI and asked is copper sulphate toxicity to aquatic life affected to pH? Here is the response

Yes, the toxicity of copper sulfate to fish is influenced by pH levels. In general:

• Lower pH (acidic water) increases copper toxicity because more copper remains in its free ionic form (Cu²⁺), which is highly toxic to aquatic organisms.
• Higher pH (alkaline water) reduces toxicity as copper tends to bind with other compounds, making it less bioavailable to fish.

Additionally, water hardness plays a role—higher calcium and magnesium levels can help mitigate copper toxicity by reducing its bioavailability. If you're considering using copper sulfate in an aquarium or pond, it's crucial to test and adjust pH and hardness levels to ensure fish safety.

I bet that's not on the label - it certainly isn't on their website!
But it rules it out for the community tank where the water is very soft and acidic. Yes it will kill the snails (that's an assumption) but there is a good chance it will kill everything else.
If I go with the remove the fish from the nano option I would increase my chances by replacing all the water with RO and leaving it without water changes for a few weeks to allow the pH to drop.

I am still dithering about what (if anything) to do in the nano. I am possibly leaning towards Panacur (yes I do mean the dog de-worming powder, which is fenbendazole) as it is cheaper, does not contain copper sulphate and does not require me to count drops. Any opinions on that? Naturally I will remove the fish and shrimps.

 

[GaryE]

I have been told by experienced aquarists that copper can remain in the silicone joints of a tank, and remain a problem after. I don't use it myself, so I haven't followed through with any research. So I may be repeating fish lore, which would be irresponsible without this warning. But the people who warned me off it were serious breeders who felt it affected fry well after use.

 

[MaloK]

Fenbendazole has a very low solubility in water, with a maximum dissolution rate of approximately 0.01 mg/mL at room temperature.

This very low solubility can affect its bioavailability and efficacy in aquarium uses.

 

[seangee]

I have heard that too - but also can't confirm.
I have just had an interesting thought though - on one of the sites I was looking at last night (possibly the UK aqquatic plant society forum) someone observed that their MTS crawled up the glass after a water change. Others had observed the same but the only proposed reasons were something in the water the snails don't like. I discounted this and moved on because I have observed the same thing but only use RO water in one of the tanks; i.e. what's not to like.

But on reflection (obviously a quiet day at work ), when I change the water I usually add TNC Lite. This contains Cu at 0.002% according to the label. Dosage is 1ml / 10l so if my arithmetic is correct that makes 0.002ppm when diluted - but could that be enough to trigger the MTS to try to leave? Yesterday was W/C day in the big tank which is why there were a lot more than usual on the glass. I do use it in the shrimp tank too and AFAIK in neutral water shrimp and fish would be fine with 50 - 100 times that level.
Edit: In response to @GaryE 's post

 

[seangee]

Using copper as a poison is probably not a good idea. It seems Fenbendazole is off the option list as from what I can tell it is ineffective against MTS.
But today I have almost no MTS on the glass, and I can't believe last night's efforts significantly dented the population. If my theory on the plant fertiliser is correct that would suggest that the plants have already taken up the copper I added. I'll know for sure once the lights go out. If it stays that way I will see what happens if I add another dose of TNC Lite tomorrow afternoon. If it does send them up the walls it is far more effective at luring them out of the substrate than cucmber or algae wafers and I could probably make a realistic dent in the population by picking them off over a few weeks. I'll post the results of the experiment.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

re the MTS- have a read here: https://www.tfhmagazine.com/articles/freshwater/taming-the-tenacious-trumpet-snail

re not having fry survive, investigate the possibility of velvet aka Oodinium. This can kill fry while more mature fish fight it off. It can be difficult to see, especially on small fish. Usually what kills ich will kill Oodinium,

I could be totally wrong here, but it is at least worth investigating, IMO.

 

[seangee]

Interesting aside - I don't use or rate Aqadvisor but I entered my tank size and 1000 MTS as the only occupants. Since they don't list my filter I entered Fluval 406 - which has a much larger capacity than mine. These are the warnings I got without adding any fish

• Warning: Your selected species may eventually require 206% of your aquarium space. You may need to deal with territorial aggressions later on. Try removing some of (Melanoides tuberculata) or get a larger tank.

...
Warning: You NEED to add more aquarium filtration capacity!!!

Your aquarium filtration capacity for above selected species is 24%.
Your tank is too small - it will require massive amount of frequent water changes each week!

Your aquarium stocking level is 265%.
Your tank is seriously overstocked. Unless this setup is temporary, you should consider a larger tank

 

[MaloK]

The problem is not when they are alive it's when they die.

Constant water changes and lots of "other" scavengers mitigates the problem completely.

But if you let go. they will create a poisonous environment where only "they" can survive. ex: a shrimp only tank.

Bladder snails will overrun all resources and leave no other crustacean alive. I don't have lab proof besides a couple experience and in the last year one done intentionally. All seed and cherry shrimps died and the tank is left with nothing else I can see.

MTS's have the same kind of effect but much slower and also found out that they don't tolerate as much acidic water compared. This is slowly bringing one of the tanks to have less and less of them.

But shrimps does not thrive in there. Both tanks. Requires water changes and carbon doesn't do anything.

In tanks that I have no "pest" snails, seed shrimps and cherries coexist in harmony and are living the life... While seed shrimps are really competing for food with them they pose no existential threats.

This comment is oriented toward shrimp only aquariums and I would say the only snail that I would find beneficial with cherry shrimps are Nerites, because their eggs are calcium carbonates pockets, the shrimps will end grazing on algae growing on them. That gives an extremely natural calcium supplement in their diet and they never become a menace.

 

[seangee]

They may not like acid water but they still survive. When I had this tank (20G long)

the pH was always below 5 and they still lived and bred in there - although not as fast.
When I pull them out of the Flex (pH7) their shells are rock hard. When I pull them out of the community (pH just below 6) the shells are soft enough that I can squish them with my fingers. But I still find some in there that are the same length as my 6+ year old cardinals. So I guess that means that they (at least some of them) do live a long time.

 

[MaloK]

What was your KH in that setup ?

In my test tank I'm under 30 ppm and they are slowly melting.

 

[seangee]

0. I used pure RO and there was a lot of very old wood in the tank, along with a constant supply of cones. I did do large weekly changes to prevent the pH spiralling out of control.
Strangely the star grass (heteranthera zosterifolia) in the background would not grow in any of my other tanks - but lots of stuff wouldn't grow in here

 

[MaloK]

Maintaining A PH close or under 5 is really pushing BB's to their top performance.

The eternal don't worry and worry about KH / PH debate. In many situations it's true that KH is the main leader.

I still find them as two of the most important factors in a successful setup. And low PH with High KH is achievable.

But you didn't answer. What was your carbonate power in the tank ? That's is what is keeping snails alive in the first place.

 

[seangee]

KH was zero. The only thing I ever added was food. And root tabs for the plants. I suspect there was almost no BB in there. I filled the top with water sprite and frogbit while waiting for the plants to grow.

 

[MaloK]

ok, that was straight, at this point you can consider calcium in food as a tank supplement.

 

[Colin_T]

Copper does not get into silicon and leach out killing fish. If any does get into silicon it would be in such small amounts as to be harmless. I have used copper in plenty of tanks and simply drained and refilled them, along with a complete gravel clean, and they have been fine with shrimp.

Malaysian trumpet/ livebearing snails don't die when you use copper. Some might but most close their operculum and wait it out. I treated a 4ft tank with copper and salt. I removed the fish and plants and added so much salt it wouldn't dissolve, then added 10x the recommended dose of copper sulphate, left it for a week before draining and flushing. Two weeks later there were snails crawling around. Cooking the substrate kills them but normally you need to strip the tank and wash everything (including filter media) to get rid of them.