The great kitten debate

[Arfie]

Well, no! Thats not true. But its hardly the same thing either. I would NEVER intentionally put my animals at risk, and im quite shocked you'd even imply it as you know me fairly well. I allow my birds out as i believe that keeping them in a house 24/7 is as cruel as keeping them in a cage 24/7. They need sunlight and fresh air. I've not had any problems since and as you, for some reason im not too sure about, dont know what happened with my bird i wont go into that as its WAY off topic.

Also, by not neitering her cat and allowing it to roam the streets she IS breeding her cats. She knows that by letting an unneutered cat out that it will most likely have kittens and, even with two litters, is refusing to neuter them now. I wouldn't say im 'pro-neutering', i dont have my dog neutered for medical reasons, and will not be neutering the ***** puppy we have, as she's going to be rbed from, or the dog as he's doing showing and will in the future, hopefully become a stud dog. If he doesnt however, he will be neutered.

Yes I do know you Jess, but I know lady_tanksalot a whole lot better.

I don't know what I was wrong about, the parrot being taken, or the fact that you still allow the others to sit outside, but I know you wouldn't intentionally allow any of your pets to be put at risk and she would also never intentionally put her pets at risk and that is the point I was making!

Even if neutered her cats and any that are allowed outside could still catch diseases from other cats, even through them trying to breed when they are neutered, so it is not relevant.

I also know you are not pro-neutering, I've read your discussions and difference of opinion with a qualified vet!

You seem to be OK with the cats breeding, so long as the maximum earnings can be reaped, by them being pedigree.

Arfie

 

[Jessica13]

You were wrong about what happened to my bird but i refuse to go into that now. It has nothing to do with this thread and it is also not something i wish to discuss further on this forum.

But, as you insist on using my parrots as a comparison.... When my parrots are outside (for no longer than half an hour at a time) i am with them constantly. They are never more than about 2 foot from me. They also have their wings clipped so they cant fly (dont want to debate that either before you start.) and the one that can fly has been trained to come back to me when i call it. Maybe this isn't completely 'safe' but i've certainly used every precaution i can think of to try and keep my birds safe.

lady_tanksalot is INTENTIONALLY letting her cats get pregnant without knowing who the father is. If it was her daughter and not her cat im sure you'd think this was irresponsible!! The cat can catch diseases is neutered, but it is far more likely to if its not neutered. That is the point i was trying to make.

And yes, i had a difference of opinion with a vet (who i have never met and doesnt know my dog) about neutering my dog. But i also am going on the advice of my vet who has seen my dog since it was 8 weeks old, knows the problems she has had, and her full medical history.

And finally... I have no problem with people breeding for money, as long as they do it right and try to breed the best they can. We did this with our dog, we bred her to get a puppy for ourselves but we also knew there was likely to be a larger litter than one so we found a very good stud dog to mate her to and yes, we did sell the puppies 'at a premium'. We did it all correctly though and made sure that our dog was put at no unnecessary risk.

 

[lady_tanksalot]

no i'm not in it for the money,( i actually said if i could not rehome, not sell) my kittens are given away to anyone i know will provide them with a GOOD home.

Hmmmm....

If i know the new owner so can personnally vouch for the home they are going to I will give them away, if not they will be sold at a premium

Ok then...

Im not sure how you managed to get confused and hence think i am contradicting myself, so i'll try to simplify it for you.

If I know the new owners and can vouch for them personally they are welcome to take away a kitten free of charge, if i don't know them, i cant possibly vouch for them and be sure they will give the kitten a good home, so i will charge for it to make sure they really want it.

Hope this helps you to understand

 

[mm_simb]

And you cant protect yourself, let alone your animals from all diseases, or keep them entirely safe from everything.

You're right. You can't entirely shield your animals from every disease but letting your un-spayed female roam and get pregnant by a cat you don't even know the history of is irresponsible. You can at least try to shield the kittens and the female from diseases they can get from the father by trying to find a person that owns a male cat that has all the shots and is overall healthy.

 

[Jessica13]

no i'm not in it for the money,( i actually said if i could not rehome, not sell) my kittens are given away to anyone i know will provide them with a GOOD home.

Hmmmm....

If i know the new owner so can personnally vouch for the home they are going to I will give them away, if not they will be sold at a premium

Ok then...

Im not sure how you managed to get confused and hence think i am contradicting myself, so i'll try to simplify it for you.

If I know the new owners and can vouch for them personally they are welcome to take away a kitten free of charge, if i don't know them, i cant possibly vouch for them and be sure they will give the kitten a good home, so i will charge for it to make sure they really want it.

Hope this helps you to understand

No offence, but your kittens are just moggies... Im not sure what you class as a 'premium' but I would imagine its not far off what you'd pay for a pedigree cat. To be honest, if people were willing to pay £50+ for a moggie, i'd think that they would be using it to breed, as you have with yours, and charge a similar price for the kittens.

Maybe im just not trusting enough...

 

[lady_tanksalot]

yes i could find someone who has a male who had his shots etc, but to make that totally bomb proof it would mean keeping my cats indoors, i have no intentions of doing that and 'clipping their wings' so to speak, my cats have as mucha natural life as possible, i am fortunate enough to live somewhere i am able to do this without a great risk of loosing them to traffic.

So in conclusion, i am haappy that my cats are living their lives to the full, I love them greatly, i do not feel I am putting them at any great risk, in fact to the contrary, they are amonst the few cats i know who are up to date with ALL their vacinations and have regulare vet checks. And I am also in the fortunate position of being able to provide some of the nicest people i know with the much wanted gift of a kitten that will be loved and cared for for years to come.

If you can't handle that... tough... I can.

 

[Jessica13]

So.. Living their lives to the full means having as many litters as you can out of them? Because if you dont neuter them they will just keep going!! I certainly wouldn't say you should keep them indoors, I live in the country and all of my cats are free to go out, though i have them in every night. But they are ALL neutered and fully vaccinated so that they are as safe as possible. As Arfie said it is impossible to protect them from all diseases but it is your responsibility as an owner to do all you can to avoid them catching unneccessary diseases, surely?

And if you want to give someone a gift, im sure you could think of something other than a kitten.

It seems that you are totally unwilling to hear any other point of view, so i sincerely hope, for your sake, that nothing happens to your cats or kittens, and i will say it again, they are lovely kittens.

 

[mm_simb]

Well good for you.
Now you're just putting your cats in the same risk humans are and much more. Natural mating which would be just letting your cats find whomever and how many ever they wanted to do is a high risk to the health of the kittens. I wish you luck with your kittens' health as they will need it if you don't know what father provided your female with that litter.
Whether you take the info people have given you and use it to the advantage of the animals is up to you. I think everything has been said to you already. Just know that when you put things on a "public" forum you are going to get different opinions whether you like it or not. If you can't handle that, don't post it. And I am not trying to be rude...just informative.

 

[lady_tanksalot]

I am still actually waiting for either of you to provide me with a list of diseases that they are being subjected to that they are not innocutated to or the kittens have natural immunity to (at least until they are old enough to have their own vacinations). If I or my vet feels that breeding has put an unnesessary strain on them i will have them neutered.

Are you really that self opinionated after all i have explained about my cats upbringing, that you think that i have not talked this subject through with my vet, who i assume has more experience and knowledge than either of you. (that is an assumption and i apologise if i am wrong).

one final point, breeding pedigrees may reap a much higher financial reward (£350-£400 per kitten), they also usually yeild a higher number of kittens per litter, this in turn leads to more complications during birth and more birth mortalities and need for cesareans. more of a health risk IMO

 

[NinjaSmurf]

UK Purebreds Persians

UK Purebreds Siamese

UK Purebreds Burmese (check 're-homing)

UK Purebred Turkish Van

It seems to me that adult mutt cats are nicer than the adult pure breds....


Purebreds and look alikes UK

Why would someone get a purebred cat when you can't breed them? I mean, why does it HAVE to be a papered cat?

MOGGY BREEDERS - FRIEND OR FOE TO THE CAT?
Copyright 1997, 1999, Sarah Hartwell

Most cat workers encounter people who refuse to neuter their cats. Lately I came across someone who claimed 'controlled' breeding of moggies ensured the vigour of cats while pedigree cats were becoming increasingly unhealthy. Another moggy breeder churns out 'pedigree lookalikes' whose parents were probably sold with the proviso that they be neutered at 6 months. There is a limit to the number of family, friends and colleagues on whom kittens can be offloaded. What happens when this supply of homes runs out?

THE BLEAK STATISTICS

Thousands of healthy, friendly cats and kittens are destroyed daily simply because they exceed the number of available homes. In some areas around 80% of healthy kittens are destroyed.

One female can be responsible for 420,000 kittens over 7 years. People who adopt from refuse-to-neuter owners frequently take that owner as their role model and allow their own pet to breed. US studies show that 36-60% of unneutered pet cats stray within 3 years.

Numerous people are emotionally blackmailed by a friend whose kittens 'need homes' but later decide that they do not want the responsibility of pet ownership.
Shelter studies suggest that up to 50% of adopters fail to have cats neutered or allow them to have a litter first despite neuter contracts.

So it seems it doesn't matter if you charge money for the adoption to make sure they are 'good' people.

Many refuse-to-neuter owners believe that rescue groups will automatically take their unhomed kittens. However, there simply aren't enough shelter spaces available. Many shelters are full of surplus kittens produced by so-called 'controlled moggy breeders' who have run out of friends or relatives to sop up the kittens and who say 'I thought I had homes for them all'.

If everyone starts breeding their cats in the hopes of having kittens to fill in the 'lack of kittens in the UK' I have a feeling they soon won't have to wait for kittens to be in the shelter...

There are very few areas where there is genuine demand for the products of a moggy-breeder. There are plenty of kittens from irresponsible owners, farms, pregnant strays and kittens simply abandoned with the trash. Even in areas with cat shelters, there will be advertisements in newsagents, on roadsides, on vet noticeboards and in local papers indicating the extent of the surplus kitten situation.

Unneutered 'naturally breeding' cats are at greater risk of FeLV, FIV and other infections spread by biting and fighting. Neutering reduces the likelihood of fighting and eliminates mating, greatly reducing the risk of FeLV/FIV. 'Natural' breeding ensures the spread of deadly viruses.

Which, I do believe, is what you LET happen with your cat Lady_tanksalot, isn't it? Well, hmmm (oops, there's that damn hmmm again) that means your kittens could have some serious defects that might not even show up till they are older... and rather than admit that they can't afford to take care of such medical problems the people who 'adopted' i.e. BOUGHT from you they might drop it off at the shelter. Only now it's older. And remember, nobody wants an older cat.... Or they'll bring it back for a refund, and then you'll have an extra cat...

I should know, one of my moggy as you say kittens was named SNOTTY for a reason, he has something wrong with his palate and it cause his nose to run almost constantly with snot and blood. An operation will not help him, my friend already took him to the vet. This was a kitten from unknown father and a stray mother we took in. So yeah, I think it does matter that you just let them breed willy-nilly.

Unneutered females are at increased risk of cystic ovaries, pyometria, mammary tumours, calcium depletion and may die during or as a result of kittening.

Those are the grim statistics. What other arguments do moggy breeders use to support their irresponsible hobby?

Full Argument

Full site archive


It seems I lied, I really did have more to say....



Edit: Oh, and I forgot, your litters can have more than one dad. Like, three to a litter. So, that seems to up the ante of some of them having some sort of defect or illness.

And yes, your cat can get rabies, distemper, fel/Luk and the cat AIDS, even with vaccines. The kittens can get it too.

I thought that was common knowledge?


Lady_tanksalot, if you really have this much time and money to take all these kittens to the vet and such, why don't you open your own rescue or at least donate to shelters instead of adding to the problem?


And yes, they are very adorable, but at what price?

 

[Erised]

Lady_tanksalot, if you really have this much time and money to take all these kittens to the vet and such, why don't you open your own rescue or at least donate to shelters instead of adding to the problem?


And yes, they are very adorable, but at what price?

I dont see how she is 'adding to the problem' here. She's made it very clear that she has good homes for the kittens to go to, and that around her there Is No Problem. You cant add to a problem that's not there ... I seriously doubt she'll put her kittens outside in her garden and let them wander off as wild cats to be caught and go to a rehoming center.

I'm not in the UK, I should not debate in this ... so that's all I'm going to say. (It's not participating in the fight really, it's just stating the facts mentioned before)

 

[mm_simb]

When these people that buy kittens from her realize that they don't have the time for them and go take them to a shelter as an older cat. That's adding to the problem.
And it doesn't matter whether you're in the UK or not to be able to realize that letting your female cat mate with whomever she wishes is wrong. I feel sorry for that cat if it continues to be allowed to roam free as an unspayed female. She's just going to keep having kittens after kittens.
Thanks Ninja for all the info. I was going to post some of it but you beat me to it

 

[FishEnthusiast]

I wasn't going to reply to this thread anymore, but I really feel I have to. It is really detrimental to any cats health if they have lots of kittens. Ask any vet, they will tell you. Having one or even 2 litters is ok, but to never spay your cat. That will cause them to die at a young age. Do you really want that? If you do then I will have to say you are an irresponsible pet owner and you should be ashamed of yourself. No matter what the kitten/cat shortage in your area is, it is not worth your cats life! Not to mention what you are exposing your cat and her kittens to by not knowing if the father is healthy. Please think about what you are doing. For the sake of the cats you already have, not the kittens everyone around want.

 

[lady_tanksalot]

I have never asked freinds of colleauges to take my kittens they ask me

my cats are vacinated against distemper, fel/Luk and the cat AIDS, as most other cats around here are (we do not have a ferral sitution in my area) and i doubt if they will contract rabies unless they decide to hop on a ferry without my knowledge (sorry did i not mention I'm in the uk).

and no i don't have pots of money to open a shelter, I wish i did.

I understand that you have taken on cats that you are not able to afford to keep, and i'm sure you did this with the right intention but as this is the reason you are so het up about the whole situation (that isn't a situation) then i feel i have to make this point.

Fishenthusiast, i totally agree with you on the over breeding point, but i have no intention of continually breeding my cats, Edith is 3 1/2 years old, this is her second litter, Stanley is 3, this is her first litter. they will both be neutered at some point.

 

[NinjaSmurf]

OMG, I just figured out the reason behind the UK kitten shortage!!



The kittens have this funny way of turning into cats!!






Now if only people could figure out that they are merely buying the young of a cat instead of a kitten, we wouldn't have this problem....





And you know what this reminds me of? Fad breeding. Oh, you know, when some type or breed of animal becomes popular suddenly, and then the next thing you know that type is everywhere.

101 Dalmations. Suddenly, everyone and their mother breeds dalmations, and what do you know, they have a litter of puppies ready just in time for Christmas!

Babe. Wow, look how many border collies are showing up in the shelters now that people realize they aren't as easy to train as the ones in Babe seemed to be....

Lady and The Tramp. Well, at least it had The Tramp, and that whole lesson about the pound, but how many people actually went to the pound and got mix breeds instead of rushing out to get a cocker spaniel? Or a scotty? Hmm, lets think...

It's Frasier time, and look, you too can have your own Eddy!!

It's Easter, you know what that means! Bunnies!! Oh yes, bunnies for sell at flea markets, private homes, back yards! Because every kid loves a bunny at easter! Right up until it ends up at the shelter because no one realized how much hard work bunnies are. Or worse, out in the field, because hey, we all know bunnies are really just like rabbits. Right? Right??


Ahh, and that's when shelters get overloaded, because suddenly people realize babies grow up, they get bigger, they eat more, they aren't always as playful. Or hey, they used to breed a fad animal, but wow, suddenly no one is buying the puppies, and now they, and the original breeding parents, who are tired, strained, and probably not even that socialized since they were only used for their bodies, find themselves at the shelter. Because they lost their usefulness.

Most of these fad breeds aren't even bred well, backyard breeders don't often take the time to spend good money on quality animals. They are in it for the profit. And once profits go down... so do all those homeless animals.


So you see tanks, your a fad breeder! You saw the demands for kittens in your area, and now you are meeting these demands. Your selling a PRODUCT. For the amount you are charging for just ONE of your kittens, I could rescue almost FOUR from my local shelter, dewormed, shots, fixed, the works. Or, being me, I could pick four of the ugly 'too old' cats that are about this / / far from being put to sleep.

And I mean, wow, how long have you had your cats? Because if they weren't fixed as soon as you got them (considering you have the means to do it right away) then you must have been planning to breed them all along, right? Yup, your breeding on PURPOSE. It wasn't like, 'oh damn, she's pregnant, I guess I'll have to find them homes'. Nope, you knew what was going to happen. And your doing nothing to stop it.




So I ask you, when, hmm, lets say, finding yorkie puppies is hard because there aren't that many in the shelter (in the UK of course ), are you going to get a yorkie?