The End Of Mh

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andywg

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Obviously there are a number of questions and experiences to be seen before MH truly disapears, though a number of people have mooted the point of the next genereation of LEDs as a more efficient way of getting growth...

http://www.solarisled.com/

Pricey now, but if they fell down...could be worthwhile looking at. I for one would love to kill off the heat of the MH. Though I like the touch of having a processor controlling the lights so it can automatically give a lunar cycle and probably seasons too.

Truly the future seems... bright B)
 
No way, someone is actually building them? Sweet! Wonder how pricey they'll be -_-
 
Bit pricey, $849 for a 14" model, up to $3,344 for the 6 foot model.

Mind you, as the site shows, these are better PAR than MH, and at around 40% of the electrical requirements and with an effective "bulb" life in excess of 50,000 hours.

The 13K model has less PAR than the 20K (the 20K came in at 178 PAR compared to the MH with 133 PAR) but I would still expect it to at least match, or better the MH.

Think about it, you could change the amount of each colour LED to perfectly match the sun, and then with extra ones you could re-create how the sun starts more in the yellow for noon and gradually blues out.
 
One of the reasons Tunze haven't conquered the world is they don't want to. How often do you hear of them breaking? Tunze have chosen not to do quantity supply, but to do quality. Rio went for quantity, and they have nuked many a tank as a result.

Also, MH is still viewed as the high end of lighting, something Maxijet most certainly are not considered when it comes to powerhead and pump technology. Ask anyone serious about the reef what they would love int he tank for circulation and they will say Tunze.

MH hasn't conquered T5, PC and even NO T8. However, LEDs are cheap to make. If this is a viable technology, then the price will freefall. When factoring in the price of that overhead unit, also factor in the saving on purchasing a chiller. It's all about long term costs here.

We are not talking about a powerhead which has a turnover far higher than any other at a massively reduced running cost (strangely, if you run the pump for 4 years then Tunze are the cheapest PH on the market; pay now or pay later never seemed so apt...), we are talkling about a massively cheaper to make and run electronic component. Anyone can rig up an LED unit, and I daresay many will soon, forcing the price downwards. Afterall, what happens to all electronic components? They get smaller and cheaper.
 
Ever tried to replace an LED? how about a light bulb? Which seems easier.

Anyone with a solidering iron can rig up an LED display, but how many know how to research wavelengths and spectrums in an LED? LED's are not cheap to manufacture or they would be in every automobile in the world. And MH are not the high end of lighting; certain brands, certain fixtures, and certain ballasts are the high end. You can get a single ended MH for about $100 but it definately isn't going to be the high end lighting setup. The same can be said about LEDs. How do you know which exact LED is the perfect one? How are you going to be able to tell if the LEDs par rating is truly better. Just because they say it is are you going to believe it. I worked in R&D for an electronic MH balast manufacture (where I used a PAR meter on a regular basis) and let me tell you how many times the bulbs we got in met manufacturers claimed ratings - 0. There are good manufacturers and then there is the crap. The same will be true for LEDs. If you want a cheap price quality will sufer.

As far as Tunze, I never said they were crap or even close to a maxijet. The point was they won't let quality suffer (for now) so the price is not affordable for many reefers. And the cost savings of the electrical consumption does not pay for the original cost for quite a few years. With lighting this will take even longer as the lighting cycle on tanks doesn't run all the time and will delay out those savings.

Also as far as programing for seasonal effects in lighting, what is the point? Are you going to have adjustable overflows to simulate the changing tides? No matter what you do you will not be able to simulate the natural chaos of the ocean in your tank. And it is far easier and better to keep the tank simple. Stability is the key in a tank.

I stand by my original statement that LEDs will never be able to take over MH as the cadilac of lighting.
 
Ever tried to replace an LED? how about a light bulb? Which seems easier.

Considering the bulbs will last over 11 years at 12 hours a day, I reckon the non replacement of an LED will be easier than that of an MH bulb.

Anyone with a solidering iron can rig up an LED display, but how many know how to research wavelengths and spectrums in an LED? LED's are not cheap to manufacture or they would be in every automobile in the world. And MH are not the high end of lighting; certain brands, certain fixtures, and certain ballasts are the high end. You can get a single ended MH for about $100 but it definately isn't going to be the high end lighting setup. The same can be said about LEDs. How do you know which exact LED is the perfect one? How are you going to be able to tell if the LEDs par rating is truly better. Just because they say it is are you going to believe it. I worked in R&D for an electronic MH balast manufacture (where I used a PAR meter on a regular basis) and let me tell you how many times the bulbs we got in met manufacturers claimed ratings - 0. There are good manufacturers and then there is the crap. The same will be true for LEDs. If you want a cheap price quality will sufer.

You missed my point, electronic components only go one way in price. Look at RAM, I rememebr when it would cost you 100s of pounds just for 1MB, now you can get 1GB for £40 and less. The reason the LEDs are expensive now is because they are a different style of LED (in the same as the "super birght" LEDs were different to the original LEDs). As the techniques for creation get better and more efficient, the prices will fall.

As far as Tunze, I never said they were crap or even close to a maxijet. The point was they won't let quality suffer (for now) so the price is not affordable for many reefers. And the cost savings of the electrical consumption does not pay for the original cost for quite a few years. With lighting this will take even longer as the lighting cycle on tanks doesn't run all the time and will delay out those savings.

A website did the calculations, though I can't find it now. It actually found that so long as you plan to keep your reef for more than 2 and a half years then Tunze will save you money.

Also as far as programing for seasonal effects in lighting, what is the point? Are you going to have adjustable overflows to simulate the changing tides? No matter what you do you will not be able to simulate the natural chaos of the ocean in your tank. And it is far easier and better to keep the tank simple. Stability is the key in a tank.

You can already do waves witht he Tunze wavebox. And why head for stability. In a single place the reef can change in salinity from 1.022 to 1.027 during the course of the year, temperatures can fluctuate up to 4 degrees in a day in the more tidal zones. Reefs are nowhere near as stable as we would believe.

Take the Southern Great Barrier Reef, as the tide comes in you get a noticeable shimmering effect due to the different temperatures of the tidal pool and the ocean colliding. How do the fish react to this barrier of temperature change? They swim from one side to the other.

Wild reefs are a number of things, stable is most definitely not one of them. I for one would rather try and recreate the natural environment than some artificial unchanging habitat.

I stand by my original statement that LEDs will never be able to take over MH as the cadilac of lighting.

Being English, I could never insult MH enough to call it a cadilac ;) I do think that LED will overtake MH as the most sought after lights, and the cheaper runnign costs will lead those reefers that plan forwards to choose them over MH. More light for less power for less heat? It's all good.
 
Trust me on this one, I worked in the lighting industry. If there is no industrial use for these particular lamps they will never be cheap enough and no one will make a fixture setup to use them. The reason MH are sought after is the availability combined with the intensity. T5 HOs are already cheaper, less power demanding, and have less heat issues and they are barely infriging on MH because good fixtures are hard to come by.

And just because an LED takes a long time to "burn out" all it really needs is a power fluctuation or a resistor to go bad (which is very common). Ever seen an LED array with burnt out spots - happens all the time.
 
Interesting thread we have here :hey:

LEDs are the superior technology. I figured, when I came into reefkeeping, that MH was the undisputed champion of reef tank lighting. But I couldn't help but wonder about LED lighting; it seemed as the only lighting that hasn't been adapted into reefkeeping. But it also seemed to me that it was the most advanced.

But the price is outrageous; I'll have to wait until I'm rich to get one :hey: :lol: And like crazyelece said, the price may not come down.
But the price is surely the biggest drawback. Second comes the fact that if something did go wrong, it would be hard to go in and fix it.

-Lynden
 
Things change, I'm sure most of the people here think (rightly) that UGFs are outdated, crude trash, but a few years back all people had for a marine setup was a UGF, crushed up shells and salt. Some people still do. That was considered the height of technology, I'm sure similar arguements cropped up against new fangled things like externals, HOBS, skimmers.... As is being said on here, they were probably thought of as unnessecary when they already had the perfectly good UGF, a waste of money and electricity, high price... We shall see. I agree with andy though, price of most things like that plummets quickly.
 
Trust me on this one, I worked in the lighting industry. If there is no industrial use for these particular lamps they will never be cheap enough and no one will make a fixture setup to use them.

I don't trust you on this one. Because someone (PFO? I forget who) has made a fixture. They were on display at IMAC, as I am sure they were at MACNA and Interzoo.

Me, I didn't like the look of the tanks they were over. That's #1. #2, I don't buy the no loss of intensity claim or the 12 year lifespan claim. #3, if something does go wrong, I'm pretty sure they don't offer a lifetime or 10 year full warranty.

But I prefer the look of MH lights by far to the fixtures I saw at IMAC, and I believe there were 3 different ones running there if I recall correctly.
 
s soon as the big developers get involved then the price will drop.. look at BMW etc with their high powered LED braking lights. the technology is out there and it can be done today if anyone with the money and consumer power had the interest.

The problem is that the marine hobby is such a specialist area there simply is little profit in all the development costs. Its great to see that the LED lighting systems are finally coming out but i fear that they will continue to be expensive until the research get alot cheaper :/


I would love to cut down the heat of my halides but at the expense of those gorgeous glitterlines :unsure:
I would have to think long and hard on that one :blush:
 
I wasn't talking about the aquarium hobby when I was talking fixtures. Of course they are out, that was the link in the first place. What makes MH so poular though is the manufactures already were making the product to begin with and someone just used it for a different purpose. With LEDs this isn't the case. No one is currently producing LED lamps for industrial purposes and until they do the "Big Boys" won't bother with this little corner of the market. For example electronic MH ballasts weren't brought about for the purpose of cleaning up Par values or making aquarium lights look better. They were brought about for industrial power consumption purposes as lighting demands on the electrical infrastructure were getting out of hand. Having an electrical balast meant the lamp fixture was more efficient and had the potential to be dimmed to help in wasted power consumption. Only after that were they looked at being tweaked a little more to incorporate an addition market share in the aquarium industry.

Eventually, yes the technology may give way to the industrial market. But it will never overtake MH lighting unless it does so first in the industrial applications. That won't be for a long time.
 
With LEDs this isn't the case. No one is currently producing LED lamps for industrial purposes

Eventually, yes the technology may give way to the industrial market. But it will never overtake MH lighting unless it does so first in the industrial applications. That won't be for a long time.

I disagree on both points. BMW has allready started using high-powered LED's in their cars, and methinks mercedes and Lexus/Toyota are working on similar products. I would call those industrial applications. Somebody has to pave the way with new technology, and they're doing it.

I also disagree that it will take a long time for this change to happen. With technology moving as fast as it does today and the demand for more efficient products every increasing I'd think its closer than we're all assuming. Everyone is concerned about energy costs nowadays, so its only a matter of time before this efficient energy technology comes flying off the perverbial shelves.
 

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