Tank Plan Opinions....

[-germ-]

Ok.
So far;
3xAngels (2 gold, 1 marbled)
2x dwarf gourami (female)
2x honey gourami (both male, i think)
In a 17 us gallon tank. Too small etcetera.
The MasterPlan
According to what i have read i need a bare minimum of 6 gallons per angel and 2 per gourami, if i bought myself a new matching tank then i would divide the fish toward;
TankA>17 gall; 2 honey gourami, 2 gold angels= 16 galls (my gf's fish)
TankB>17 gall; 2 dwarf gourami, 1 marbled angel= 10 galls (my fish)
I would however prefer some form of algae eater for each tank, a bristtlenose plec would suit me fine, but my gf can't stand them. We saw some form of loach at the fps, could you recommend a tiny loach that would be suitable for tank A?
What plants would you recommend as suitable for these combined species?
Any special info anyone can think of for keeping these species together?
Is my plan rubbish?
It seems (in my head) like the cheapest and most sensible option available. I know the tanks could be bigger but would this be enough as the best of a bad situation?
Be gentle....
Ps. The tanks are half circles (22 inches tall) so sufficient height wise for angels.....
The 2 male honeys get on fine at the moment though i am aware this could change......

 

[Rillan]

Plan sounds good. Seems like you have taken time to reserch what you want to do. Let me know what ya do

 

[Tolak]

The minimum tank size for any adult angel is a 20 US gallon, at least 16" tall. You have the height, if those tanks are UK gallons you have 20 US gallons each. The problem is that each angel needs 10 gallons as an adult, and if they start to pair the third angel or the gouramis will be seen as a threat, and the target of aggression.

Since you do have two identical tanks this does give you some options as far as switching fish if there is any aggression. Both tanks will be overstocked, and need to be treated as such. This means increased filtration, as well as maintenance.

I've kept angels & gouramis together in a 55 gallon without a problem, this included a breeding pair. It's hard to make a call on a smaller tank. If the tanks are mature consider some ottos, a rather sensitive fish but an excellent algae eater.

 

[-germ-]

Since you do have two identical tanks this does give you some options as far as switching fish if there is any aggression. Both tanks will be overstocked, and need to be treated as such. This means increased filtration, as well as maintenance.

Nope i don't have a second identical tank yet, i had been told that i needed a 50 us gallon plus to keep all the fish, but i thought if i bought a second identical tank i may be able to work around the expenditure of a 50 gallon. Guess not.
I've been told that gouramis unless really slow should be able to avoid any serious problems with aggressive angels because of their size and manouverability (bad spelling). I like to provide loads of cover so they have retreat points and i'm more than happy to put in every bit of maintenance i can (until my gf's baby arrives ).
Thanks for the tips on the ottos i'll do a bit of research. Although i very much doubt my main tank is mature enough (and seen as i do not yet own a second, that is also a no-no).
Should have explained myself better.
Cheers anyway

 

[nmonks]

Whilst broadly I agree with Tolak's comment above about angelfish, I'd add a personal opinion that I don't think angelfish are all that good as community fish. They are cichlids even if they don't look like them, and with that comes intolerance of poor water quality, aggression, apt to bullies towards one another, and highly territorial when they've paired off. Fine in a big tank, but like Tolak I'd suggest they're of dubious value in anything less that 55 gallons.

I also happen to consider dwarf gouramis a complete and utter waste of money. Disease is so prevalent among them that buying one is a kind of a lucky dip, with the best prize available being a fish that lasts a year, and most of the other prizes a fish that'll be dead in 3 months. Thick-lipped gouramis (Colisa labiosa) and the poorly-named "giant" gouramis (Colisa fasciata) are a hundred times hardier and altogether nicer fish. Sure, you'll need to hunt a little more to find them, but they're out there and invariably inexpensive and easy to keep.

Honey gouramis are a borderline case for me. I like them, but they are delicate and I think ill-suited to the busy community tank. They do best in soft, acidic water with plenty of plants. Great in their own tank with a few rasboras or whatever, but not so good with larger fish or anything even remotely aggressive, such as angelfish and especially larger species of gourami.

Algae eaters aren't essential in any tank. Add them if you want, but they won't make algae go away, and eventually you'll need to clean the algae manually. I happen to think whiptail cats are fun; they don't eat much algae, but they look cool. Maybe a better choice is the clown plec (Panaque maccus) a dwarf species of Panaque that eats wood and algae. Rather cute little thing, a shade smaller but dumpier than a bristlenose.

I wouldn't put Otocinclus in any tank containing gouramis and angels. Otocinclus scrape the sides of large, slow fish when hungry. I've seen it happen. They're fine with tetras, Corydoras, etc. but not so good with things that sit about doing nothing, like angels.

Anyway, perhaps food for thought. Good luck with the tank!

Neale

 

[-germ-]

Thanks very much food for thought indeed....

Have to start saving i guess, methinks for a nice 50+ gallon....

I only bought my first fish a fortnight ago

 

[-germ-]

.

 

[Tolak]

If all those fish are in a single 22 gallon you are going to have problems. Go for the 50 gallon, you won't have to deal with an overstocked situation. You have to have a backup plan with an overstocked tank like that, it can crash & burn fast. With the 55 you have the 22 as a backup. You need this when dealing with cichlids.

Plecs, corys, and ottos are some of the only fish that will get along with adult angels in a smaller tank. Those angels will have no problem catching up to the gouramis if they want, plus they have the attitude that goes along with cichlids. In a smaller tank there will be no retreat, and they won't be able to read nw cichlid body language and avoid any aggression.

Every angel is different, they have different personalities & levels of aggression. They may get along fine with the gouramis long term, they may mature & get quite nasty. They are capable of ripping the fins of another angel or gourami down to nothing when they pair & get aggressive, I've had that happen. For now get a divider ready, they should sell these when they sell any cichlids as far as I'm concerned.

 

[rdd1952]

I can say from experience (and all setups and fish are different) with angels that they are fine with other community fish. I started my 75 gallon tank 2 years ago with 10 black phantom tetras, 4 SAEs and 4 small (about the size of a quarter or 50 cent piece) angels. I still have 9 of the tetras (don't know what happened to the 10th, all 4 angels (about 3" long now not counting tail) and 1 of the original SAEs (have added 2 more back. The angels never bother the tetras or the SAEs. The pick on each other at times but nothing that is harmful to them. I have since added 4 corys and a 6" pleco that were given to me by my son about 3 months ago when he had to get rid of a tank. They all get along fine. The key may be getting them all when they are young and small so they grow together.

 

[nmonks]

What matters is the sex of the angels and whether or not they are spawning. Adult angels (which will be at least 10 cm long) leave the school to spawn. In the wild, they hive off in pairs and defend sunken roots. In the aquarium, their territory is about 60 cm in diameter and off centred around some tall object like a plant or big rock. Either way, when that happens they stop tolerating conspecifics, and will harrass any that can't leave their territory. Males are very likely to be less tolerant of other males than females, just as with most other cichlids. So a lot depends on the size of the tank, maturity, reproductive status, and the gender of the fish.

They are certainly good community fish in the right tank and with appropriate tankmates, but their aggression in small tanks and their predatory nature (i.e., they eat small tetras in the wild given the chance) makes them less that ideal community fish if you don't plan things carefully first.

Cheers, Neale

I can say from experience (and all setups and fish are different) with angels that they are fine with other community fish... all 4 angels (about 3" long now not counting tail... The key may be getting them all when they are young and small so they grow together.

 

[Tolak]

Hey rdd, nice to see you back again!

Angels will work in a larger tank as a community fish in many cases. In a smaller tank the see the entire tank as their territory, and any fish seen at a threat get treated accordingly. Plecs & corys, which stay mainly towards the bottom of the tank, aren't seen as a threat unless they start to eat a spawn.

 

[rdd1952]

Thanks, Tolak. Been AWOL for a year but want to get active again. I see you got a promotion since I've been gone. Now you're a Mod and can bully us all around....lol.

 

[-germ-]

Right, another change in plan........
For now i have got rid of all but one angel who is now living with the four aforementioned gourami and now have two hillstream loaches, the angel is still going to end up too big but as she is young and small hopefully this set-up will suffice for now, as for aggression this prevents any danger of spawning territoriality, inter angel aggression and my gourami have enough small hiding places to prevent her from inflicting any damage if inclined. The angel i have kept is the most peaceful of all 4 and she spent more time attempting to shoal with my gourami than with the other angels.....
In fact since they left everything is much, much more relaxed in the tank. No more bullying and my dwarves seem to have lost their nervous streak, maybe it was just too crowded.
I've checked on the loach conditions and i can provide these with a bit of mucking about...
So until "blondie" outgrows the tank, i'm sorted, just got to decide if my tank is actually cycling....

 

[rdd1952]

Just out of curiousity, how do you know the angel is a female. They are almost impossible to sex when young and the only way to insure of getting a possible mating pair is to get 4 or 5 to begin with and wait for 2 to pair off.

 

[-germ-]

I don't, but being the anthromorphosist i am, i just call he/her a female, although blondie can be a male name as well....
Eg; clint eastwood in the good the bad and the ugly.
Due to her being the only angel i'm keeping i'll never know....