Sw Fish Becoming Fw Fish?

Ethos

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Someone told me (I will not be naming names) that over one fishs' generation you can ween it off Sw, first going brackish, and having less and less salt and eventually becoming FW. Then you breed a male and female which were origanally SW so they have FW babies, then BOOM, you have a completed generation of new FW fish that's parents started as SW fish.
Can this be true? I dont believe it....
I dont believe in Evolution, but I believe in evolution.
I would think deeper but its late on a school night and I should be going to bed soon....hmhm...
 
No, it's not possible. The biology of FW and SW fishes is very different.
BTW, the Evolution you don't believe in is called abiogenesis.
 
I can probably be done (over a couple millions years) but not in one generation.

edit: Synirr, that's hillarious
 
Salmon are a good point, but are a slightly unusual case seeing as they move from SW to FW naturally. I'm guessing the kind of thing in mind here is keeping a clown fish with guppies for example.
 
BTW, the Evolution you don't believe in is called abiogenesis.
edit: Synirr, that's hillarious
?
What?
Why do you think thats funny? Is there something I missed?

There are certainly brackish fish that can tolerate fresh water, but full marine... no.
How long can they last that way?
I know someone who was told that the SW goby they purchased would be fine in their FW because the parents that it was bred from were in SW.
 
I don't think you can swithc a fish during it's short life span. THere would be too much stress. There are numerous species of fish that can live in both SW and FW. They are the ones that live near the deltas of rivers and spend time in both the river and the ocean. I don't know if it is the same species or not but I have caught (years ago) rainbow trout from the ocean (also catfish).
 
BTW, the Evolution you don't believe in is called abiogenesis.
edit: Synirr, that's hillarious
?
What?
Why do you think thats funny? Is there something I missed?
I'm not getting sucked into this... but i'll answer the other question....

There are certainly brackish fish that can tolerate fresh water, but full marine... no.
How long can they last that way?
I know someone who was told that the SW goby they purchased would be fine in their FW because the parents that it was bred from were in SW.
There are some species of fish (like, say... the salmon) that spawn in freshwater and live the early part of their life there, but eventually make their way into a marine habitat. There are goby species that similarly start life in fresh/brackish and move to marine as they mature. There are gobies that start in fresh and move to brackish as they mature. There are some marine fish that can tolerate freshwater temporarily (bull sharks in the Mississippi for example).

The point is, all of these are long evolved specializations over millions of years. You can't make a random species change from one type of environment to another just by breeding it or moving it or any other technique.

In other words, learn about the actual living requirements of the species you plan to keep and then provide them.
 
O don't feel that I need to add to the above list about why it isn't possible but I just wanted to say something...

Why would you want to? Isn't keeping fish from different environments part of what makes fishkeeping so interesting? Each kind of fish is so different and learning about how to keep them and their natural environments is fun and educational...

If you want SW get SW. If you want FW get FW. It's as simple as that. If for some reason you are desperate to create a fish that will live in conditions that naturally it shouldn't be able to tolerate you are very very greedy. (Not calling you greedy ethos... "you" is a general "you"
 
Dont be so quick to rule it out guys, i have said a million times that certain morays can go from FW to SW and then back to SW again. I did that with mine since i was forced to, and hes happily eating. Also, certain bumblebee gobies can go in either, although it is likely these may be classified as a seperate species one day (like a FW one and a SW one) .

However, evolution takes millions of years, especially to place a FW into SW. I have seen many brackish fish go into full SW and FW before as well, but this is very different form a full switch. The way that fishes osmosis works basically rules it out. A freshwater fish would be sucked dry in saltwater, and a marine would likely inflate to its doom.

Think about this: freshwater rays are closly related to saltwater sharks, however fresh rays cannot tolerate any salt. They evolved to tolerate freshwater, and even though they were once in saltwater eons ago, their osmosis has changed them, and it cannot be changed back. If it becomes favorable in the future, then they may begin a slow change back to saltwater, but itll take millions of generations, not just one or two.

-Lynden
 
before i do anything else, osmosis is roughly the process by which water moves through a permeable membrane from areas of higher to lower impurity. osmotic pressure is driven by the difference in purity levels on each side of the membrane.

Dont be so quick to rule it out guys, i have said a million times that certain morays can go from FW to SW and then back to SW again. I did that with mine since i was forced to, and hes happily eating. Also, certain bumblebee gobies can go in either, although it is likely these may be classified as a seperate species one day (like a FW one and a SW one) .

i don't think it counts as a sucessful acclimation to FW if you had to switch him back before he starved to death. additionally, there's quite a difference between fresh and brackish waters. for starters, the second has salt in it. :p there are different gradients of brackish, but if its got any salt, its not fresh. i've not heard of any moray that can be happily acclimated to live in full freshwater its entire life, but there are 2-3 species that can do quite well in various levels of brackish.

there are in fact 3-4 species of bumblebee gobies and some of them are in fact classified as 100% brackish while others in theory can be acclimated to freshwater. the trick is identifying which species you have (a process complicated by the potential presence of hybrids in any batch of captive-breds)

However, evolution takes millions of years, especially to place a FW into SW. I have seen many brackish fish go into full SW and FW before as well, but this is very different form a full switch. The way that fishes osmosis works basically rules it out. A freshwater fish would be sucked dry in saltwater, and a marine would likely inflate to its doom.

Think about this: freshwater rays are closly related to saltwater sharks, however fresh rays cannot tolerate any salt. They evolved to tolerate freshwater, and even though they were once in saltwater eons ago, their osmosis has changed them, and it cannot be changed back. If it becomes favorable in the future, then they may begin a slow change back to saltwater, but itll take millions of generations, not just one or two.
good points here, however. i'd just like to point out that it isn't that the osmosis is different for each case, but different species have evolved different biological mechanisms to handle osmotic flow of water. some examples:
--many freshwater fish have non-permeable scales that keep too much water from entering through their skin. very few saltwater fish have scales and if placed in freshwater, the outside water would quickly begin to push its way through their skins.
--fish that have evolved to live in salty water must purify any water taken in with their kidneys before their bodies can use it. this creates an osmostic pressure that pulls water out of their bodies and to counteract that, salty water fish constantly swallow water as they swim. a freshwater fish put in salty water would also experience this removal of water, however swallowing water wouldn't help them in the long term because the freshwater fish's kidneys aren't evolved to handle that sort of heavy load.
 
Hmhmhm.
Thanks for your replies.
I don't want this to turn into a theiology debate, but I just want to ask that further responses leave "Evolution" out of it.
Its certianly obvious today that there is evolution, But quiet a few people dont believe in Evolution.
I don't want anyone to be affended(Including myself), or make this into a debate.
(Side note on Evoltution: Its like fishless/fish cycling. Somone alwasy thinks they're right. I personally think Evolution is redictulas, but thats just me. You can refer to evolution, just not Evolution. Ex: "Well, millions and Millions of year agos..")
Who knows, this topic might already have died.
 
Pica nuttali, i did not put the moray back in saltwater. He is still in freshwater. It turns out he was scared of my hand, and so i fed him with a metal stick. I posted it on the orginal topic, as an update. So HAH!

To end an Evolution vs Creation discussion before it starts here, it is a matter of belief. I do have faith in God, however i think that the creation theory is completely rediculous. However no matter how hard i plead, and beg, and cry, and attack, creation believers will not be convinced, or be converted no matter how much evidence is against it. And vice versa for Evolution believers. So Done!

Oops, that was supposed to be "FW to SW to FW" again in post #12. Sorry for the mistake.
 

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