Sudden Symptoms In Tank

[Boothros]

HI. Sorry if this is long but I know you guys like to have as many facts as possible. I have a125l tank with external filter stocked with the following:

1 x Siamese fighter
1 x plec of unknown type currently 2" long
3 x Golden white cloud mountain minnow
4 x Rummy nose tetra
Approx 10 cardinal/neon tetra
8 x shrimps
6 x assassin snails

I aware this is possibly overstocked and some of the shoal sizes may actually be a bit small but I bought the tank complete with stock and it had ran well for a few years so at the time did not question the stocking levels.
I run on mineralized RO and inject CO2 as the tank is heavily planted and the current levels are:

Ph 7.6
Ammonia 0 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 10 ppm

Recent history: About three weeks ago I introduced the Assassin snails and 3 small bunches of plants. A few days later I then did a water change which I fear may have been a little too cold. This possibly caused stress in one of the minnows, which I think may be one of 2 females. It has been lethargic ever since, hanging around the top of the tank but becoming active during feeing times. As sods law would dictate, I was going on holiday the following day so had to leave it to its own devices half expecting it to be dead on my return, although when I got back a week later it was much the same. I have also noticed when gravel cleaning what appears to be eggs (small round yellow balls). The 3 minnows were quite aggressive to all comers until the water change incident so whether this might breeding related behaviour, I don't know.
ANYWAY, onto the problem!
Yesterday I saw one of the Rummy nose had what I thougth was a bad case of dorsal fin rot. It appeared to have a large chunk out of it's back. I inspected the rest and a tiny neon has a large ulcer on it's side. I immediately did a 40% water change and heavy gravel clean and treated the whole tank with eSHa 2000. I managed to catch and hospitalise the Rummy nose and the lethargic minnow and am treating them in a holding tank with the same. I was however unable to catch the ulcerated tetra which is certainly no worse and is still very active and alert. However, my question is, what is actually wrong with the Rummy nose. I have tried to photograph it but that wasn't that successful so I will try to describe. On close scrutiny, there is not actually rot there, the fish has become mishapen. The fin is ok, but the back has sort of sunk and the stomach although not bloated has sunken too so the fish instead of being straight is now like a very elongated S shape. I am wondering if I should later be treating for internal parasites perhaps as I havn't found anything bacterial so far that would cause this sort odd body change (which literally happened overnight). The rest of the stock so far appears ok, how much should I be feeding them whislt treatment goes on?
All suggestions welcomed thankyou.

 

[WILDER]

Your tank is abit overstocked. Best to over filter a tank when it slightly overstocked. Is it possible to rehome some snails, shrimps.

What does it look like when your fish go to the toilet?
Long stringy white waste, clear mucas waste?
Check the anus of the fish to see if it's enlarged or red and inflamed?
Have you seen any worms sticking out of the anus?

Sunken in belly, bent spine. Causes.
Internal parasites.
Fish TB.
Injury to the spine.
Birth defect.

The neon tetra. Is the red stripe area still vibrant red?
The red sore on the neon tetra. Does in look pink, or red, with a circling of dead white tissue around the edges.

Always try and match your water change temp, to tank temp.

 

[Boothros]

WILDER, I can see no evidence of toileting from any of the fish and the anus on the rummy nose looks normal. I can also rule out birth defect and I believe injury to that fish. There appears on the neon to be the start of rot around the base of the tail, it looks darker than it should and the tail fins a little ragged, the wound itself is now quite whiteish with a few peppered bits of white around it. The red on its good side looks quite normal though its blue flash does seem to be kinking very slightly, possibly indicating the start of the same spinal damage? The fish is still quite active and as yet still uncatchable. I've performed the last day of anti fungal treatment today and am wondering what my next move should be if any until one of them should die. The minnow has not changed in appearance at all though is still a bit lethargic and the rest of the stock so far appear well.

 

[DrRob]

For my 2p, I'd keep up the higher rate water changes. As you say, you're overstocked and small water parameter problems make healing a lot slower. It's possible that the breeding minnows simply nipped the others, but the water isn't quite good enough quality for them to heal well. Lots of good clean water will help with this.

 

[WILDER]

Can you check your neon tetra's for these symptoms.

White bleached out patches?
Blue area turning a golden yellow colour.
Bleached out red stripe area.
Fish looking restless.
Neons leaving the shoal.
Swimming in a odd manor.
Milky substance on fins, body.
Popeye, dropsy.
Black lining around red area.
Bent spine.
Loss of weight.
Lumps that form a point,

Need to rule out NTD,

Pleistophora (a.k.a. Neon Tetra Disease)

Symptoms:

Pleistophora is also called Neon Tetra Disease because of its high prevalence among Neon Tetras, although it has also been reported to infect most Characins, Cichlids, Cyprinids (i.e., danios), and all the carp-like fishes. It is characterized by a loss of coloration and pale, white patches of skin, particularly the strip of skin beneath the dorsal fin. Other symptoms may include spinal curvature, emaciation, fin deterioration and erratic swimming behavior.


Cause:

The microsporidian parasite Pleistophora hyphessobryconis. Pleistophora live in the muscle tissue of infected fish and cause degeneration and wasting of the muscle. The parasites travel through the fish�s blood, quickly spreading to all areas of the body. Pleistophora not only affect the fish�s muscles but all its internal organs.


Treatment:

There is no effective cure for this illness, partly due to the fact that by the time diagnosis is confirmed the fish is too weak to be saved. If more than one fish in your aquarium succumbs to this parasite, the entire aquarium should be emptied and dissinfected. Some aquarists suggest the use of a diatom filter to trap the spores of the parasite and thus clear them from the tank.

Pleistophora can easily be mistaken for False Neon Disease, which is a bacterial infection and presents with the exact same symptoms. For this reason, it would be wise to remove the infected fish to a hospital tank (while disinfecting the main tank) and treat them with a broad spectrum antibiotic.

 

[Boothros]

Apologies for not posting on here for a while after your kind replies, but nothing of note really happened for a while. I had considered Neon Tetra disease particularly with the fish involved but can honestly say that none of the stock have lost any colouration or in fact had many of the listed sypmtoms. In fact it has all been rather strange...
after a few day, I put the 2 hospitalized fish back into the main tank. The minnow was behaving normally and the crooked little rummy nose, whilst still crooked had shown no further symptoms whatsoever. As the most affected fish the tiny Neon was still proving to be uncatchable and I was unsure if my small hospital tank was well cycled enough to support the patients, I took the risk. After all, if the whole tank had already been exposed to some of the nasties I was dreading, it was surely only a matter of time before I lost the lot anyway (and continuosly chasing down a minute fish seemed pointless and cruel to all of them)
However, the RN tetra whilst still a little bent, is now happily back in the shoal and as active and as bright looking as the rest of them. And the tiny Neon is showing very good signs of recovery! I cannot quite belive this, he first appeared to have a large ulcer on one side and a rotting looking tail. The ulcer then seemed to bubble up looking quite white, it appeared more like proud flesh than an actual fungus but this has gradually subsided. Now he has a black patch where the ulcer was which strange as it may sound looks like healthy tissue. Throughout all this, he has lost none of his alertness, agility or appetite. I'm cautiously hoping we may be over the worse of it whatever it might have been.

 

[WILDER]

Thank you for the update.

Glad to hear the neon tetra a lot better.

 

[fluttermoth]

Do you have any idea how old the rummynoses are, OP? Just that, and it hasn't been mentioned yet, bent spines often occur in old fish.

In the absence of any other symptoms, that might possibly be the cause.

 

[Boothros]

That's a very good point Fluttermoth. I bought the tank and all its contents and occuupants second hand. Although I don't know the actual individual ages of the fish, the seller said he had had this set up for about 4 years.