Stubedoo's 300litre Tank Log - My First Ever Tank

[Miss Wiggle]

Yes I think you're right WD, more baking soda

MORE MORE MORE!!!!!!

(can you tell i'm slightly giddy today)

 

[waterdrop]

Don't mind her. She's just on a high, unrelated to your baking soda.

Just make your addition in a reasonable controlled amount and always keep good records.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[stubedoo]

Also, I think he's being too "wimpy" with the baking soda. This is a fishless cycle, right?

The reason I was being wimpy with the baking soda was because I wanted to see what impact the coral sand had first. As you can see below I have added quite a bit of baking soda now, because the pH started to drop again, which has raised the pH (not half as much as I expected) and the KH.


Day 37 (22nd Jan) - 9:10am

Ammonia 2.5
NitrItes 4
NitrAtes not tested
pH 7.2
KH 2.5

Day 38 (23rd Jan) - 9:45am

Ammonia 1.0 (added ammonia solution to raise level to approx 4ppm)
NitrItes 4
NitrAtes 40
pH 7.0
KH not tested

NB: added 7tsps of baking soda in attempt to raise pH

Day 39 (24th Jan) - 9:55am

Ammonia 1.5 (tested again at 16:30 = 1.0 => added 6ml of ammonia solution @ 16:30 to increase to approx 3ppm)
NitrItes 1.5
NitrAtes 40
pH 7.4
KH 6


Day 40 (25th Jan) - 9:45am

Ammonia 1.8
NitrItes 1.5
NitrAtes not tested
pH 7.5
KH not tested

I'm a bit worried about the lack of NitrItes growth, as I've yet to see it go 'off the scale', and appears to have fallen back recently.

Also I'd like to point out that because this is my first tank etc, and because I think it will be more interesting/fun, I'm intending to stock very low at the start and slowly add fish over quite a long time. As I understand it, if I don't stock quite heavily at the offset I will lose quite a bit of the good bacteria that I have grown (or will grow) doing this fishless cycle. So my question is... Given that I intend to add fish almost at a rate suitable for a fish-in cycle, is there a way I can quicken up this cycle, or ammend it to suit my needs? (It's beginning to seem a bit wasteful to go through all this, only to end up 'losing' a lot of it) For example should I drastically reduce my ammonia input? Or should I keep this high to promote NitrIte growth?

 

[waterdrop]

No, stubedoo, its very important to maintain your ammonia dosing in the correct range during fishless cycling. The practical way we hobbyists talk about it oversimplifies what's going on down in those biofilms as really our two desired species of bacteria are competing among quite a few species and it takes the right ammonia levels for ours to "win out" and be the ones that are majority populating the filter. 3-5ppm is the right range to say in throughout the cycle, perhaps dropping down to 3ppm during the nitrite spike stage, but easing back up to 5ppm for the end *even* if you plan to understock.

Your plan to stock lightly is great! But you still want great water for these first fish and fully qualifying that your bacterial colonies are robust is what the process is all about, not really the size of the stocking. If you think about it.. there is really no choice: you -always- want the bacterial populations to be "too big" and then to drop down to meet the fish load, never the other way around or essentially you are back to having an uncycled filter and damaging the fish.

I can really relate to your situation as I too am one with extremely soft water and mine and nearly every other case here I've participated in with pH crashes has tended to a very slow fishless cycling process overall. It really tries your patience. But perhaps the silver lining is that I'm here to attest that eventually the filter will indeed cycling just like everyone else's does and man, when its solid, its solid and fishkeeping becomes so much easier and safer in my opinion.

Now that you're in gear with the baking soda I'll bet your fishless cycle is going to get back on track and by measuring KH you'll get a better handle on when and how much baking soda to keep it that way. As long as you're at KH=4 and above, you've got pretty much time without adding any. Its about after you start seeing KH=3 and below that you should raise it again. And just about any pH in the 7's should give pretty decent speed to the cycle.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yes cycling is a supply and demand type of thing. if you're only going to stock lightly (no more than half stocking) then you can cycle the tank with 3ppm of ammonia easily. exactly the same process but use less ammonia and it's done when the 3ppm can be converted to 0,0 in 12 hrs.

it doesn't make a huge amount of difference time wise though but you may cut a few days off.

 

[stubedoo]

Thanks for the advice Waterdrop & Miss Wiggle, useful as ever.

Day 41 (26th Jan) - 9:50am

Ammonia 0.7 (added 10ml to take to approx 4ppm)
NitrItes 0.7
NitrAtes not tested
pH not tested
KH not tested

Day 42 (27th Jan) - 9:30am

Ammonia 2.0
NitrItes 0.4
NitrAtes 60
pH 7.6
KH 6

So interestingly my NitrItes seem to dropping to 0. I can't decide whether this is a good thing or not. The thing is I have never had a NitrIte explosion where the test goes 'off the scale' (and I know what this looks like as I've tested a friends tank water when this has occured). Isn't it normally the ammonia that is the first to drop to 0, and the NitrItes are normally the sticking point? Should I be worried or pleased by these results?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

what I think has happened is because the pH dropped the population of ABacs suffered a bit so you're getting less nitrite produced, but you already had some NBacs so with less nitrite being produced they are able to cope with it. It'll even itself off in a few days when the ABacs recover a bit.

 

[Schmill]

Blimey, you've had some troubles over the past few weeks haven't you Stu!
Glad to see it all seems to be sorting out now though, and yes, I'd be inclined to agree with MW, that the ABacs perhaps died back during the problems, and hence there isn't so much nitrIte there for processing now.
Give it a couple of days and see what is happening then

Good luck!

 

[stubedoo]

what I think has happened is because the pH dropped the population of ABacs suffered a bit so you're getting less nitrite produced, but you already had some NBacs so with less nitrite being produced they are able to cope with it. It'll even itself off in a few days when the ABacs recover a bit.

I think I understand what you mean, but while the NitrItes did fall back when the pH crashed, they almost immediately recovered to pre-crash levels. It was about a week later when they fell back to very low levels again. Anyway here are the latest test results. The NitrItes have continue to fall back / keep low, but the Ammonia seems to be continuing to process at a similar rate. Any thoughts? Would there be an advantage in doing a water change over the weekend to reduce the NitrAte levels?

Day 43 (28th Jan) - 10:25am

Ammonia 0.7 (added 10ml of ammonia solution to take level back up to approx 4.0ppm)
NitrItes 0.25
NitrAtes not tested
pH not tested
KH not tested

Day 44 (29th Jan) - 9:45am

Ammonia 2.0
NitrItes 0.25
NitrAtes 60
pH 7.5
KH not tested

Day 45 (30th Jan) - 09:30am

Ammonia 0.8 (added 7ml of ammonia solution to take level back up to approx 3.0ppm)
NitrItes 0.20
NitrAtes not tested
pH not tested
KH not tested

 

[stubedoo]

Day 46 (31st Jan) - 11:30am

Ammonia 1.0 (added 6ml of ammonia solution to take level back up to approx 3.0ppm)
NitrItes 0.20
NitrAtes 60
pH 7.5
KH not tested

 

[stubedoo]

NB: Approx 60 litre (20%) water change done during afternoon of 31st Jan... Did this to hoover up some of the debris that had accumulated on the sand.

Day 47 (1st Feb) - 11:20am

Ammonia 0.8 (added 7ml of ammonia solution to take level back up to approx 3.0ppm)
NitrItes 1.0
NitrAtes 50
pH 7.4
KH 4.5

Day 48 (2nd Feb) - 11:50am

Ammonia 1.3 (added 4.5ml of ammonia solution to take level back up to approx 3.0ppm)
NitrItes 0.20
NitrAtes not tested
pH not tested
KH not tested

Day 48 (3rd Feb) - 09:40am

Ammonia 1.4 (added 4ml of ammonia solution to take level back up to approx 3.0ppm)
NitrItes 0.10
NitrAtes not tested
pH not tested
KH not tested

Day 49 (4th Feb) - 09:40am

Ammonia 1.2 (added 5ml of ammonia solution to take level back up to approx 3.0ppm)
NitrItes 0.20
NitrAtes not tested
pH 7.4
KH not tested

Getting very bored of this now. The ammonia seems to have been processing between 1.5 and 2.0ppm every 24 hours for ages now. The nitrItes have dropped back down to a low level despite never going through a population explosion (i.e. above 4.0ppm). Do the NitrItes need to go 'off the chart' to develop enough ability to fight back the ammonia. It seems odd that I am waiting for the ammonia to drop back , and not the NitrItes. Isn't it usually the other way round? As ever any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

 

[stubedoo]

Day 50 (5th Feb) - 09:35am

Ammonia 1.2 (added 11ml of ammonia solution to take level back up to approx 5.0ppm)
NitrItes 0.20
NitrAtes 40
pH not tested
KH not tested

Day 51 (6th Feb) - 09:40am

Ammonia 3.0
NitrItes 0.20
NitrAtes not tested
pH 7.4
KH not tested

 

[stubedoo]

95% Water change (6th Feb 14:00) - Given that my fishless cycle seem to have stalled, and lacking any other ideas I decided to do a 95% water change to try and freshen things up a little. Ammonia solution was added, at approx 15:00 to take ammonia to 4ppm.

Day 52 (7th Feb) - 09:45am

Ammonia 1.0 (added 9ml of ammonia solution to take ammonia level back up to approx 4ppm)
NitrItes 4.0
NitrAtes 25
pH 6.4
KH 1

7tsps of Baking Soda added (7th Feb 10:00am) - Clearly the almost complete water change removed the previous baking soda I had had in the tank, and the pH dropped, so added the baking soda to stop it from dropping to dangerously low levels.

Day 53 (8th Feb) - 09:45am

Ammonia 2.0
NitrItes 4.0
NitrAtes not tested
pH 7.3
KH 4

Day 54 (9th Feb) - 09:50am

Ammonia 1.0 (added 9ml of ammonia solution to take ammonia level back up to approx 4ppm)
NitrItes 1.2
NitrAtes 30
pH 7.2
KH not tested

Day 55 (10th Feb) - 10:40am

Ammonia 3.0
NitrItes not tested
NitrAtes not tested
pH not tested
KH not tested

Day 56 (11th Feb) - 09:45am

Ammonia 1.8
NitrItes 0.2
NitrAtes not tested
pH 7.2
KH not tested

Day 57 (12th Feb) - 10:15am

Ammonia 1.0 (added 9ml of ammonia solution to take ammonia level back up to approx 4ppm)
NitrItes not tested
NitrAtes not tested
pH not tested
KH not tested

All in all I'm mightely fed up with this whole process. The big water change seemed to have a really positive effect, as the Ammonia dropped by 3.0ppm in under 19 hours. But since I've added the baking soda and therefore raised the pH the amount of ammonia being processed in 24 hours has been dropping to around 1.0 per 24 hours (I can't understand why this would happen... surely raising the PH would improve things)

I'm really lost for ideas as to what to do next, and I would really appreciate some help, as right now the big tank in the corner of the room is not my best friend.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

OK stubedoo, clutching at straws here, try adding a plant fertisilser with iron in and increasing aeration, just about getting the optimum 'soup' for the bacteria.

i forget have you tried or managed to get any mature media from anywhere to try and kick start it?

 

[waterdrop]

Yeah, MW, I agree this seems pretty frustrating. I've looked back through the whole thread wondering if there is some major problem we've missed or not paid enough attention to. I didn't really get any great insights. One thought is that the pH just seems to be way too low for the longest time.. then finally he starts adding baking soda and it comes up a bit and perhaps the "cycle" is really starting from that point now and is possibly not very old as a result. Also, the few KH readings I see lately still seem extremely low for adding baking soda. What size tank is this again? Perhaps no where near enough baking soda is getting added. It would be nice to be pushing this pH up as close to 8.0 as possible.

I assume we reviewed all the media long ago and there are no show-stoppers like zeolite in there hopefully. Is the flow of this aqua one just not adequate or weird in some way, does anybody know?

Stub, you've been staying at 29C/84F for temp, right? And plenty of surface agitation and/or aeration, right?

I agree with MW too that its never too late to be exploring the possibilities of finding a mature media donation. Those are always great of course.

Just can't see what could be taking this tank so long!

~~waterdrop~~