Stressed Sae

[cms091]

It's been a long time since I last posted here but I could use some help and advise.
 
I've got a 210l aquarium with, among other fish (cories and small tetras), two siamese algae eaters, about 6 years old and 4-5 inches long. All has been well until about 3 months ago. Then one had a nastly wound on its back. I treated the whole tank with melafix and the wound healed. yesterday the same fish has wounds all over it and the other sae is chasing it off whenever it sees it. I can't tell if the wounds are caused by the unwounded sae, but I suspect so.
 
I decided to move the wounded fish out. The tank has java ferns on logs which I had to take out to catch the fish. After some chasing it around I managed to get it and move it into a hastily set up hopital tank. 40l with a filter with some media from the other tank in it. I traeted it with melafix.
 
After 24 hours, the ill fish is obviously still traumatised and breathing very heavily. The wounds are less red and I can only hope they heal. But the problem is what to do then? Do I leave it all alone in the small tank? Or try to move it back, stressing it  by the move and expossing it to the (probable) bully again. 
 
I don't really want to leave the small tank set up. 
 
Thank you for reading and for any advise you can give me.
 
Cathy

 

[Akasha72]

Hi, I have 3 SAE's but to be able to offer my advice I want to double check  whether you do have a true SAE or flying foxes in disguise.
 
The reason for this is the SAE and the Flying Fox are often mislabelled in stores as they are very similar in looks/size etc. The problem is that the Flying Fox is aggressive to other Flying Foxes and needs really to be kept alone. Alternatively the true SAE is a shoaling species and they need some friends.
 
On top of this there is also now the False Siamensis out there - also similar in looks to the Flying Fox and SAE ... it all gets very confusing!
 
Can you help me with indentification. Can you first look at the tail - does the black lateral line extend into the tail and does it taper off to the tail fork or does it get wider? Or does the lateral line end at the base of the tail?
 
Next can you look at their mouths. How many sets of barbels are there? Two or Four?
 
Next look at the fins. Are the fins all clear or are there red edges to them or black lines running through them?
 
The final thing is a bit harder to explain. Look at the black lateral line - is it smooth around the edges or jagged around the edges? Is there an obvious gold line under the black lateral line?
 
If you can answer all of that I can identify if if you have a definite SAE, Flying Fox or False Siamensis. Once I know that we can go forward from there. I'll be around later this evening to help further

 

[cs091]

Different account, same poster!
I've always been sure they are true sae. They have lived together for 6 years with no agression.
 
But just to be sure...
Black line extents into tail and tapers into the centre of the tail.
I can only see 1 set of barbels, one on each side.
Clear fins, no sign of red. there are black lines on side fins but none on top fin. the leading edge is slightly dark.
The central black line is not dead straight but there are no regular zig zags more like the black has bled into the silver in two or three places. There is no gold below the black.
 
Hope this identifies them.
 
I've got the feeling that the stronger one senses a weakness and is reacting to that.
 
Cathy

 

[Byron]

I'm going to start by posting an explanation of the confusion over the species; this will likely be what Akasha said, or mostly, but as I did this research some time back for profiles elsewhere, it is simple to cut and paste:
 
The common name Siamese Algae Eater is regularly applied to several related but distinct species. The species Crossocheilus langei is the one most often encountered in the hobby as the Siamese Algae Eater [SAE] and is the best at eating black brush [aka red beard] algae. The "true" SAE is actually Crossocheilus siamensis, a species initially described by H.M. Smith in 1931 as Epalzeorhynchus siamensis and moved by Banarescu into the genus Crossocheilus in 1986, and which has probably never been seen by hobbyists since the holotype [the specimen collected and used for the description] is the only one known. To further confuse, C. siamensis is now considered a synonym for the actual species name, Crossocheilus oblongus.

Confusion abounds with this fish, beyond the fore-going. There are several near-identical species within Crossocheilus, and they are occasionally seen in the hobby. Their usefulness as "algae eaters" is variable, depending upon the species. Then there are two other fish often confused with the SAE, known as the False Siamese Algae Eater, Garra cambodgiensis, and the Flying Fox, Epalzeorhynchos kalopterus. Both of these regularly appear in the hobby, but neither will handle brush/beard algae like the common SAE. The False SAE can be distinguished by the dark lateral band that ends at the caudal peduncle whereas on the subject fish this band continues into the caudal fin. The Flying Fox has white-edged red and black coloured fins, not clear fins as in the subject species.
 
Now to the aggression issue, and here I will differ a bit from Akasha.  The true SAE is a shoaling fish and should be in a group of six (or more), or just one (though I personally don't like shoaling fish isolated).  The fish will form a definite hierarchy within the group, and having six or more usually avoids what you have seen.  With only two, or three, this is much more likely.  Having said that, obviously individual fish are sometimes of a different temperament, so three or four might work for one aquarist, but result in dead fish for another.  Regardless of the species you have, I would separate the two permanently.  When the one heals, if it does, you might be able to sell it or give it away to a good home, if you don't want them in separate tanks.  But they must not be housed together, or this will just repeat itself and that is not fair to the poor loser.
 
Byron.

 

[Akasha72]

okay, definite SAE's then That's good. I was worried we were dealing with a flying fox and that was the reason for the aggression. You'd be surprised how many times I've seen these fish mislabelled. I've even seen them labelled as Siamese flying fox!! It makes me slightly cross as there are so many differences between the SAE and FF namely that one is a shoaler and the other not
 
Anyway, if it helps I've found these fish to be quite boistrus in their play, I have one that's especially bossy and chases the other two - usually when food is around. I have a very heavily planted tank and when things are getting rough the other's go and hide in the plants so that might be something to consider. 
 
You could try adding another as being a shoaling species they are better in a group. But by now you know how huge they get and that might not be an option for you. Also you'd need to find one a similar age which could be difficult.
 
My advice right now would be to heal the wounded one and try re-introducing. If the same thing happens again then your probably down to re-homing the aggressive one. Think about providing some hiding places though as that will help. These fish can live for 10 years so they have some life in them yet.

 

[Akasha72]

thanks Byron for clarifying the differences. I did a lot of research myself into these fish as I'd heard the true SAE would eat BBA and as my tank was under a thick blanket of BBA it was music to my ears.
 
Because I'd heard also that mis-identification was common I made sure I knew what I was looking for before searching for some in my area. Mine were labelled as flying foxes and I had 'words' with the staff member when I tried to tell them they were mis-labelled. I was told the SAE and FF were the same fish and when I argued they wern't I was told 'I've been in this game more than 30 years, I thick I know more than you'. Charming.
 
I knew they were shoalers and knew they needed a group but I also knew they grew big and so tank size determined just 3 for me. I have (as mentioned above) one that is the definite boss but because there's plenty of hiding places in my tank there's generally no harm done.
 
If you feel these two fish need to be seperated perminantly then I'm going to agree with you for the sake of the OP

 

[Byron]

If you feel these two fish need to be seperated perminantly then I'm going to agree with you for the sake of the O
 

 
Yes, I would absolutely in this case.  As I mentioned previously, sometimes less than six can work, sometimes not.  But regardless of that, once trouble breaks out (when it is obviously due to inadequate numbers as it clearly is here) there is no option but to separate the fish.  The dominant male is not going to change its spots, so to speak, so it is a done deal.  
 
Now, it may well be that had there been five or six, this individual fish would never have turned like it has.  There is scientific study evidence that fewer than five with any shoaling fish is usually (not always, but in the majority of cases) going to cause increased aggression within the fish, regardless of species.  Sometimes, less often, the effect of inadequate numbers is the opposite; a fish will retreat to the point of literally wasting away.  Either way, it is stress from insufficient numbers that causes the detrimental behaviour.  All we can say is that providing what the fish requires is the only basically safe way to ensure it will probably be in the best condition and health.  Dr. Loiselle's comment in my signature is spot on.
 
Byron.

 

[Akasha72]

it doesn't help either that sexing them is impossible. I can't tell any difference between my three although I suspect I have at least one male. I hope the other two are female and that may be why I'm only seeing chasing with no real damage - plus the opportunity to get away from it all and hide in the plants

 

[cms091]

It's still alive this morning but not looking well. In the big tank it was eating (when the other sae let it) but now it is ignoring the wafer I put in. So I took it out again after an hour. The tank is in the hall, the only place I've got room to set it up and it's quite dark there so I hope it will settle down to heal. But I think the move didn't help. perhaps I should have moved the other one. But I would have had real problems catching that one and probably stressed the whole tank.
 
Cathy

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Byron- I was of the belief that one of the easiest ways to know its an SAE when one has questions about striping etc., was to observe the fish when it is resting on something like the bootom ot on a rock. The SAE will do this on its fins rather than being belly down on whatever it may be resting on. This was one of the easier ways I was taught to ID them. Was I told wrong on this?
 
I have kept what I believe were/are SAE for about 12 years and have seen them hit 6 inches or so. I have always had them in varying numbers and have never had them fight with each other. I know the earlier ones were SAEs because I had to collect them all from various tanks and put them into my high tech planted tank to deal with BBA, which they did nicely.

 

[Byron]

Byron- I was of the belief that one of the easiest ways to know its an SAE when one has questions about striping etc., was to observe the fish when it is resting on something like the bootom ot on a rock. The SAE will do this on its fins rather than being belly down on whatever it may be resting on. This was one of the easier ways I was taught to ID them. Was I told wrong on this?
 
I have kept what I believe were/are SAE for about 12 years and have seen them hit 6 inches or so. I have always had them in varying numbers and have never had them fight with each other. I know the earlier ones were SAEs because I had to collect them all from various tanks and put them into my high tech planted tank to deal with BBA, which they did nicely.

 
That is a trait I have not heard of previously.  I will have to dig around...when I did the earlier profiles a couple years back, no mention was made anywhere of this, but that doesn't mean it may not be so.  Obviously you will know that your SAE do this, the question is, do the others?
 
Byron.

 

[Akasha72]

the SAE will rest head raised and yes, sat on it's fins
 

 
Even when really young too
 

 
 
Hope that's helpful and hopefully the photographs are useful for identification purposes too

 

[cms091]

Question is academic now. FIsh died last night

  . Poor Bent Tail. The top corner of his tail was at 90 degrees from the rest since I got him. Being the one fish I could always identify, he was a bit of a favourite.
 
I think the stronger fish knew there was something wrong and was driving Bent Tail away. Bent Tail seemed to have recovered from the previous damage but was losing a little weight. All creatures pick on a member of the pack who may have something contagious, as a survival strategy.
 
 
As a point of information mine always rest on their fins too.
 
Cathy 

 

[Akasha72]

so sorry for your loss