Species For Brackish

[Rlon35]

I have just over 90 gallons, and I'm planning a brackish tank with play sand, porous rock, red mangroves, onions/ferns/sagitarria, etc. I also may keep some dead, bleached coral for effect. I am going to buy a Fluval FX5, and I am contemplating a UV sterilizer for improved water clarity.

I have questions about several species, some of which are freshwater fish said to be tolerant of brackish conditions:

1. Mono Argentous - I'd like to keep 3 of these fish, no more or less.

2. Figure 8 Puffers - I'd like to keep at least 1, preferably 3.

3. Clown Loaches - I'd like to keep 3 of these, as it has been noted that they can tolerate brackish water..

4. Plecos - I'd like to keep at least 2, with the bushynose, a brackish tolerant species, being a good option.

5. Bumblebee Gobies - I'd like to keep as many as possible yet realize that it MAY be a problem with the puffers. Do these fish eat algae?


At any rate, I'd like some feedback. What are my algae eating options, given that snails and shrimp will both be eaten in this tank? Are there other species of pleco that I could keep? I would like to keep the specific gravity at the lowest end possible, so I appreciate feedback as to that as well. Thanks guys...new to brackish here.

 

[nmonks]

These fish aren't compatible. Back to the drawing board I'm afraid.

Clown loaches aren't brackish water fish. They are said by some fishkeeping writers to occur in brackish water occasionally, but I've not seen any reliable scientific authority supporting this statement -- and I've looked. Fishbase certainly doesn't mention it.

Likewise, plecs aren't brackish water fish either. A few species have become established in slightly brackish water canals in Florida, and at least two (rarely, if ever) traded species of Hypostomus live in slightly brackish water habitats in South America. I dare say the common Pterygoplichthys species will tolerate SG 1.003 without complaint, but otherwise the Loricariidae are off-limits as far as brackish water fishkeeping goes.

BBGs certainly do not eat algae. They are extremely difficult to feed at the best of times, and can't be mixed with aggressive feeders such as monos. They have been combined with figure-8 puffers though, but this does assume you're willing to make an effort to ensure the BBGs get the live/wet-frozen bloodworms and such that they need. Most (probably 95%!) of the BBGs sold starve to death.

Monos are schooling fish in the wild, but oddly aggressive in captivity. If you keep just three, I suspect you'll end up with a single dominant one eventually. I've kept three specimens in tanks when mixed with scats, West African monos, and archerfish. Seemingly, this balances out the aggression a bit.

Cheers, Neale

 

[Davo86]

TBH i doubt clown loach or plecos will fair well Long term under brackish conditions,

I would stick to Mono argentis, Mono Serbae, Scat, Archerfish, Figure8's and possibly something like colombian shark cats for the bottom depending on dimensions

 

[Truck]

TBH i doubt clown loach or plecos will fair well Long term under brackish conditions,

im guessing the kidneys or liver would fail pretty soon after putting them in brackish conditions

 

[nmonks]

It's a bit more complicated than this. Fish do have kidneys, yes, but a lot of their osmoregulation goes on at the gills. They also have permeable skins, unlike our watertight skins.

So If exposed to saltier water than they like, fish lose water not through their kidneys but via their gills and skin. If you can imagine a plum drying out to make a prune, you'll have some idea of what's going on!

Cheers, Neale

TBH i doubt clown loach or plecos will fair well Long term under brackish conditions,

im guessing the kidneys or liver would fail pretty soon after putting them in brackish conditions

 

[Rlon35]

It's a bit more complicated than this. Fish do have kidneys, yes, but a lot of their osmoregulation goes on at the gills. They also have permeable skins, unlike our watertight skins.

So If exposed to saltier water than they like, fish lose water not through their kidneys but via their gills and skin. If you can imagine a plum drying out to make a prune, you'll have some idea of what's going on!

Cheers, Neale

TBH i doubt clown loach or plecos will fair well Long term under brackish conditions,

im guessing the kidneys or liver would fail pretty soon after putting them in brackish conditions

^^^^^^^^^

Well, I appreciate the feedback. I would like to at the least, keep monos, figure 8s, a bottom catfish, and mangroves/brackish tolerant plants. Are their any other species that I could keep? I don't want to keep archers or scats. Would ther be any other options? I feed all my fish frozen bloodworms and similar quality foods every day. Also, do I have to have a covered tank (are monos, puffers, etc. jumpers?)???

 

[Little Fish]

I have never see a puffer jumps (out from water) but not too sure about mono's. If you want mangroves you might not have a choice but to run an open tank, at least at the side where your pods are located. One advice about mangroves though. I saw fish stores put mangrove pods in their tanks like marine algae (under water), needless to say all their pods lost their leaves and were dying. Mangroves are trees, not algae, so make sure at least the narrower stem part and leaves are higher than the water line. I use the same kind of compact fluorescent light that people used for their saltwater tanks and they grow like crazy. However, mangroves are tough plants so any kind of lighting would work. I have Manila trumpet snails in the tank and they are thriving in a brackish environment and doing a decent job of cleaning up food that my F8s couldn't finish. They are nocturnal and hide in the substrate in the first sign of light which make them great cleanup crew. Funny that was not my intention in the first place. I feed the F8s with pond snails I gathered from my tropical tank. However, the F8s have such a good appetite for snails the "supply" was totally dried up in a few months. I started to pick smaller trumpet snails with thinner shells that the F8 can crush to feed them. Apparently, some got away and acclimate to the brackish tank.

 

[Rlon35]

Mangroves are trees, not algae, so make sure at least the narrower stem part and leaves are higher than the water line.^^^^^^^

I have heard the Red Magroves can be fully submerged.

 

[Little Fish]

Mangroves are trees, not algae, so make sure at least the narrower stem part and leaves are higher than the water line.^^^^^^^

I have heard the Red Magroves can be fully submerged.

All mangroves can be fully submerged for a limited amount of time. Similar situation of high tide coming into a coastal flood plain. However, besides the root, I don't know of any mangroves that can survive fully submerged all the time in either fresh or brackish water. In my brackish tank, the mangroves would excrete excess salt (drawn from the water) from the leaves. In nature, rain would wash the salt away but in my tank I need to clean the leaves every now and then. I would imagine if you fully submerge the mangroves in brackish water all the time the plant would die from either not able to regulate osmosis or "suffocate" for unable to extract carbon dioxide from the water. After all, mangroves are not marine species that can breath under water

 

[Rlon35]

Mangroves are trees, not algae, so make sure at least the narrower stem part and leaves are higher than the water line.^^^^^^^

I have heard the Red Magroves can be fully submerged.

All mangroves can be fully submerged for a limited amount of time. Similar situation of high tide coming into a coastal flood plain. However, besides the root, I don't know of any mangroves that can survive fully submerged all the time in either fresh or brackish water. In my brackish tank, the mangroves would excrete excess salt (drawn from the water) from the leaves. In nature, rain would wash the salt away but in my tank I need to clean the leaves every now and then. I would imagine if you fully submerge the mangroves in brackish water all the time the plant would die from either not able to regulate osmosis or "suffocate" for unable to extract carbon dioxide from the water. After all, mangroves are not marine species that can breath under water

^^^^^^^^^^^

What if they are started in hard freshwater, with juvenile brackish fish, and then salt is slowly added as it grows to the surface??? Tank is tall...easier to get seeds and stalks but not the size I would need to have them coming out of the surface. Alternatively, I could empty enough water to have the stalks coming out, using one of my internal filters at the tank bottom.

 

[Little Fish]

Most mangrove pods (seeds) are over 12 inches in length and grow very fast under strong lights. I would not start them submerged. I would either grow them outside the tank to the minimum height or keep increasing the amount of water in the tank as the plant grows. If you plan to put rocks in the tank you can stack up some rocks and put the pods between the rocks. As the mangrove grow to a minimum height, remove the rocks from the bottom if so desired. The roots would have grabbed hold on the top rocks already. As far as environmental requirements, you shouldn't be worrying about it that much. Mangroves are tough plants that can survive fresh, brackish, and dry conditions. Out of the 24 mangrove pods that I started with only 2 died. I think they were weakened too much during shipping and eventually died when planted. The others are flourishing and I need to keep trimming their tops every other week to keep them from growing too tall or blocking too much light.

My mangroves are red mangroves from Hawaii. The LFS is asking $20 for one pod in very bad condition. I bought them from eBay and they are very cheap and in much better condition. It's funny that mangroves are a nuisance in Hawaii but even picking up a mangrove pod from the ground in Florida is punishable by law.

 

[nmonks]

Some mangrove plants at least don't adapt well to changes in salinity once they've sprouted leaves or roots. So if in doubt, I'd recommend buying pods rather than plants with leaves and roots.

To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of mangroves. They are, after all, trees, so their usefulness in aquaria is limited. But I admit, they're inexpensive and for a while at least, quite fun to grow.

Cheers, Neale

 

[Little Fish]

Some mangrove plants at least don't adapt well to changes in salinity once they've sprouted leaves or roots. So if in doubt, I'd recommend buying pods rather than plants with leaves and roots.

I would disagree with you about salinity changes affecting the mangrove plant. Their natural habitat changes from almost fresh water to almost marine water 4 times a day (2 high tides & 2 low tides). I think they are quite adapted to such harsh environments.

To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of mangroves. They are, after all, trees, so their usefulness in aquaria is limited. But I admit, they're inexpensive and for a while at least, quite fun to grow.

Yes, this is the not so fun part. Mine are still relatively small but eventually they will all grow into mini trees and will be too big for the tank.

 

[nmonks]

I do know this. But what happens in the wild and what happens in aquaria isn't always the same thing (figure-8 puffers are true freshwater fish in the wild, yet do poorly in freshwater aquaria). It's also worth remembering that mangroves will experience change on a daily basis; in the aquarium, we expose them to a single salinity all the time. Perhaps without constant changes, they sometimes lose their ability to adapt to a single sudden change?

I've spoken with a number of people who've kept mangroves, some of whom have found them very hardy and just as tolerant as you say. But I've also heard stories that say the opposite, that when the plant was moved to a different salinity, it died.

Thus, I'd always err on side of caution and recommend people buy the pods alone and without leaves and roots. I may be being over-cautious, but I've found that when I write things that "sometimes" work, I quickly hear back from the people for whom it didn't!

Cheers, Neale

I would disagree with you about salinity changes affecting the mangrove plant. Their natural habitat changes from almost fresh water to almost marine water 4 times a day (2 high tides & 2 low tides). I think they are quite adapted to such harsh environments.

 

[Little Fish]

Neale,

I don't totally agree with you that F8 is a true freshwater fish but this argument needs another thread

I hear you Some people use full strength (SG 1.023) saltwater to keep their full grown GSP and they look great. However, no one have ever caught a GSP in the ocean. The theory that GSPs live out their younger life in a brackish environment and move back to the ocean when they grow up doesn't hold any water either. I planted the mangroves when my tank was at about 1.002 and I raised it to 1.009 hoping that I could use a protein skimmer. By the way, it is another myth that you could use a protein skimmer with high brackish...it doesn't work. It was a little too high for the F8s and since I can't use a protein skimmer anyway I dropped the SG back to 1.004. I see no differences in the growth of the mangroves over the 4 months or so it took me to bring my tank to 1.009 and then back to 1.004.

One thing I can agree with you is there are some many variables keeping "wildlifes" at the home aquarium, god knows why if something works for someone and the same thing doesn't work for others.