Some Planting Advice Please

[Akasha72]

Hi all,
 
As some of you know I've had to strip my Rio 240 as it needed to be moved out of the room while I had the room re-carpeted. The tank is due to go back early tomorrow evening. I ended up having to pull up all my very well established plants and I've also had to remove some sand to make the tank light enough to be lifted out of the room.
 
So tomorrow evening my sand goes back first and then I half fill with fresh water (I kept some of the established water as I was hoping not to shock the fish with pH differences) Then my attention turns to my plants.... and that's where I need some help.
 
When I got the amazon swords up the root ball was HUGE - larger than my fist. I was shocked by the sheer size of them. No wonder they were huge! What's the best way to go about replanting them? It obvious that I'll need to cut of some of the roots as there's no way they'll go back under the sand but is there anything I need to be aware of.
 
I also have to pull up a crypt that's only just recovered from planting. For 18 months it has been little more than one or two shoots and it had only just started to grow and look healthy. What's the chances pulling it up is going to put me right back where I began? Is there any way to avoid it melting back?
 
There's also my two tigar lotus plants. Is pulling up going to have affected them in any way?
 
I know my anubias is going to be fine as I know it's a pretty tough plant. I was planning to leave the roots alone on those and see if it will bury itself again over the next few days - is that a good plan or is it a good idea to trim the roots?
 
 
When it comes to plants I'm useless. It's one of the fish keeping things I've never been good at.
 
Some help and advice would be lovely
 
Thanks in advance

 

[Byron]

When I got the amazon swords up the root ball was HUGE - larger than my fist. I was shocked by the sheer size of them. No wonder they were huge! What's the best way to go about replanting them? It obvious that I'll need to cut of some of the roots as there's no way they'll go back under the sand but is there anything I need to be aware of.
 

 
Most will suggest you trim the roots when re-planting, and I agree.  I tend to just pull some off, rather than using scissors; I suppose I got into this habit thinking it would remove weaker roots and be ad hoc so some long roots are still left along with broken shorter ones.  I then bunch up the mass of roots, push it down to the tank bottom, move it around a bit, and heap sand all around it.  Then I very slowly pull it straight up to expose the crown.  Stick a substrate tab next to the roots if you have them.
 

I also have to pull up a crypt that's only just recovered from planting. For 18 months it has been little more than one or two shoots and it had only just started to grow and look healthy. What's the chances pulling it up is going to put me right back where I began? Is there any way to avoid it melting back?
 

 
This will probably melt it again, though sometimes not.  Some species are worse for melting than others.  The change in water chemistry will likely affect the plant anyway.
 

There's also my two tigar lotus plants. Is pulling up going to have affected them in any way?
 

 
Probably not as much.  Add a substrate tab next to the tuber when re-planted.
 

I know my anubias is going to be fine as I know it's a pretty tough plant. I was planning to leave the roots alone on those and see if it will bury itself again over the next few days - is that a good plan or is it a good idea to trim the roots?
 

 
I wouldn't trim these roots.  Presumably the rhizome is attached to wood/rock.  The plant might react to the change in water chemistry (this is unavoidable when a tank is torn down) a bit.
 
Byron.

 

[Akasha72]

thanks Byron. How ruthless can I be when cutting/breaking/pulling  the roots? How far is too far? I was so shocked at how far the amazon sword roots went ... I'm talking around 2 feet! I was not expecting that!
 
 
I know it's a little off topic but what's your thoughts on returning the fish? They're all pretty squashed up in the 100 litre tank but they seem to be coping reasonably well. I don't want to stress them further and obviously it's best they return to their home sooner rather than later but if I'm replanting the whole tank is it best to let the plants settle over night and return the fish on Friday instead of rushing to get them back in tomorrow?
 
EDIT: The anubias is tied to wood, yes

 

[Byron]

thanks Byron. How ruthless can I be when cutting/breaking/pulling  the roots? How far is too far? I was so shocked at how far the amazon sword roots went ... I'm talking around 2 feet! I was not expecting that!
 
 
I know it's a little off topic but what's your thoughts on returning the fish? They're all pretty squashed up in the 100 litre tank but they seem to be coping reasonably well. I don't want to stress them further and obviously it's best they return to their home sooner rather than later but if I'm replanting the whole tank is it best to let the plants settle over night and return the fish on Friday instead of rushing to get them back in tomorrow?
 
EDIT: The anubias is tied to wood, yes

 
On the sword roots, I have reduced mine by half, even a tad more.  The plants may or may not react to the transplanting by losing the outer (older) leaves as new grow from the centre of the crown emerges.  I have had both situations.  On the size...now you know why I frequently mention extensive root systems on Echinodorus and being heavy feeders.

   If one has the aquarium on one of the metal stands so you can look under the tank, you will see these white roots extending all over the bottom of the tank, as you have discovered.
 
On the fish, I definitely would wait until the next morning.  I have torn down all my tanks over a two year period to replace the substrate with play sand, and with the smaller tanks I got the job done by very early afternoon so the fish went back the same day.  But when I came to the 115g, it took me until 4 pm (starting at 9 in the morning, working all day) and I waiting until the following morning.  This solely for the fish's welfare.  Netting them is stressful, and the new water chemistry (no matter what we do, it is going to be different to the fish) is more stress.  This is best done early in their day so they have time to recover and settle down before darkness.  They are also better able to cope with stress early in the day.  Moving fish into a tank and then plunging it into total darkness an hour or two later is extrememly stressful on the fish.  Give them anhour after the tank light comes on, then move them over.
 
Byron.

 

[fluttermoth]

When doing root trimming, you want to take off about one third. Concentrate on taking off the larger, thicker roots, as they're used more for anchoring the plant than getting nutrition.
 
If the fish seem fine in the 100l, and the water quality is okay, then there's no harm leaving them another night

 

[Akasha72]

thanks fluttermoth

 
I've not been able to check the water quality as the 240 is now blocking the way but the Rekords internal filter is running, as is a small cycled filter and I've also hung one of my cycled externals over the side too so with that amount of filtration it should be okay. Once the 240 is out of the kitchen I'll be able to get to the rekord and check the water. It was fine this morning before I added the external and the extra fish so I'm not expecting to find anything wrong. It is a worry though. They've not been fed today and they won't be fed tomorrow either just as a precaution

okay thanks. To be honest I doubt I'll have the time (nor the energy) to replant the tank, re-fill the tank too and get the fish in all in one evening. 
 
Provided the water looks fine I'll look at re-adding them back on Friday morning

 

[Akasha72]

I've managed to squeeze past the 240 to get to the Rekord and check ammonia and nitrite. Both are thankfully zero. They look a bit misrable but I can't see any dead bodies so they're surviving.
They can stay in there now til Friday without me worrying

 

[frapadoodle]

I agree with fluttermoth, go for the larger roots, as the smaller/thinner roots are the "feeder" roots.
Wouldn't worry so much about the Tiger Lotus, I have one baby that has bounced around three tanks, and here and there in one and never batted a leaf, so to speak.
I agree with the root tabs, great stuff. When my four footer sprung a leak and I pulled my Amazons, the dwarf's roots had a death grip on one.

 

[Akasha72]

yeah, I'll have to see if I can get some root tabs from somewhere .. I have my easycarbo and profito so I can just dose the tank with the maximum allowance in one go which will help get them established again. 
I'm not sure where I'll get root tabs from around these parts. I guess I'll see what time the carpet fitter arrives and leaves and see if there's a window to spin down to pets@home and see if they sell them 

 

[Akasha72]

hi again ... okay I'm having problems getting the swords back into the sand, the root ball is just so big - even after being cut down. I'm just looking at one of them now and it looks like there's an option to split it. Can I just confirm that's okay to do without damaging the plant?

 

[frapadoodle]

I have read that is one way to propagate swords, but have not tried it myself.

 

[Ch4rlie]

yeah, I'll have to see if I can get some root tabs from somewhere .. I have my easycarbo and profito so I can just dose the tank with the maximum allowance in one go which will help get them established again. 
I'm not sure where I'll get root tabs from around these parts. I guess I'll see what time the carpet fitter arrives and leaves and see if there's a window to spin down to pets@home and see if they sell them 

 
Sounds like things are getting along again

 
Plants are a little more resilient than you may think, all the suggestions above are spot on so not much to add in that regard

 
The only advice i can think of is that P@H sells only API root tabs, not very impressed with those tbh, I have had much better success with Seach Flourish Root Tabs, think mainly due to the fact that Seachem has micros and trace in them, whilst API do not.
 
Seachem Flourish Tabs
 
API Root Tabs
 
The price difference between the two is vast, Seachem being the much more expensive but in my honest opinion, worth it for those root feeders to get micro and trace.
 
Of course there are other products out there if you search for them, as we as DIY ones you can make up,  but these two above are the only root tabs I have tried so therefore cannot comment on any other products.

 

[Byron]

hi again ... okay I'm having problems getting the swords back into the sand, the root ball is just so big - even after being cut down. I'm just looking at one of them now and it looks like there's an option to split it. Can I just confirm that's okay to do without damaging the plant?

 
Swords in pots frequently contain more than one actual plant.  This is not surprising, since the adventitious plants that form on the inflorescence are actually two distinct plants, and I assume this is how nurseries propagate them.  If you can see two crowns they will likely pull apart fairly easily.
 
I have read that you can cut the rhizome with a sharp knife to form two plants from one, though I have not tried this.  And yes, swords (Echinodorus species) do have a rhizome though it is not always easily detectable.
 
On the tabs, I use Seachem's Flourish Tabs.  The API I have not tried, but I have heard from more than one source that if these are distrubed they make a real mess.  I've never had this with the Flourish Tabs.  And these certainly help plants like swords, tiger lotus and aponogeton.
 
Byron.

 

[Akasha72]

Thanks for the replies. 
 
I went out today to buy root tabs - no one sells them in my area. I also went looking for a small bag of black sand - again, no one sells it. I also went to get another bag og NTLabs phosphate remover and that was out of stock!! I give in!!
 
So I came home and decided to try bury the sword roots under loads of sand even though that left it sparce elsewhere. Over time the cories will sort it out anyway - but hopefully not before the swords have re-established!
 
I've got the tank finished today and now all the fish are back in - except two. The tetra with the 'flukey things' and the cory with the poorly tail are in the 30 litre and I'm adding some Octozin to it to try and make them both well again.
 
Now Akasha feels like she's been hit by a truck so I need to log off and rest up. Chat to you all later