Doh! The name should have given me a bit of a clue lol
Some Info On Metal Toxicity!
- Thread starter Graeme Edwards
- Start date
Doh! The name should have given me a bit of a clue lol
Saedcantas
Fishaholic
Finally, I managed to dig up the exact answer to how sodium thiosulphate reacts with Chlorine;
AskAScientist - Chlorine and Aquaria
AskAScientist - Chlorine and Aquaria
Bloo
~ I learn something new ~ ~~~~ every day ~~~~
Great. But no chance that I have couldrons large enough to boil my weekly water change water for 5-10 minutes to remove the chlorine and Chloramines - and then that still leaves heavy metals.
I'm still sticking with my API Stress Coat, but am now better informed
I'm still sticking with my API Stress Coat, but am now better informed
Fair enough, I buggered up the reaction, no surprise there.
It really seems to be all about finding the most effective chemical to fix the heavy metals without going way OTT.
I might have a look at home at the metal concentrations in my supply (I have a breakdown, not by looking into a glass lol), and seeing if I can work out how much EDTA I'd need to sort my supply and what the consequences might be.
I've also banged off an e-mail to a range of process scientists, water quality people etc. within a number of water companies, to ask them if they have a view on the removal of metals.
It really seems to be all about finding the most effective chemical to fix the heavy metals without going way OTT.
I might have a look at home at the metal concentrations in my supply (I have a breakdown, not by looking into a glass lol), and seeing if I can work out how much EDTA I'd need to sort my supply and what the consequences might be.
I've also banged off an e-mail to a range of process scientists, water quality people etc. within a number of water companies, to ask them if they have a view on the removal of metals.
Saedcantas
Fishaholic
Jules... Seems like a reasonable plan to me, but you wouldnt be looking into using EDTA 
As we've already discussed it is much too powerful an agent and would void your water of anything beneficial too.
Maybe checking out the components of Tetra Aquasafe? It's the only one I think which claims to remove heavy and trace metals without the use of sodium thiosulphate.
As we've already discussed it is much too powerful an agent and would void your water of anything beneficial too.Maybe checking out the components of Tetra Aquasafe? It's the only one I think which claims to remove heavy and trace metals without the use of sodium thiosulphate.
Some other options have been suggested to me.
First up, an ion exchange unit. For the uninitiated, these work by replacing the heavy metal ion in the water with another similarly charged ion (often sodium). I'm struggling to find anything other than huge 20 feet tall industrial ones, but thought I'd throw this into the mix. Having said that, just found this http
/process-equipment.globalspec.com/le...hange_equipment
Another idea is to mimic the behaviour of a catalytic convertor on a car. These capture heavy metals from the exhaust fumes. But how do they work? Are there water based equivalents? Investigations for later I feel, unless anyone knows?
A third alternative is supplementing RO water. Our salty friends need not worry about the fact that the process of reverse osmosis removes practically everything from tapwater (with the notable exception of chloramine under most circumstances I might add), because they dose it all back in with their salt. I wonder if there are similar additive products available, only without the actual salt.
@ Bloozoo, would you like us to pm you if/when we find an alternative, so you can sell your API shares in time? (Just pulling your leg, no offence intended).
@ Saed, Maybe an e-mail to the manufacturers of Tetra Aquasafe is in order. Can't see them giving it up though! Must do some other stuff now.
First up, an ion exchange unit. For the uninitiated, these work by replacing the heavy metal ion in the water with another similarly charged ion (often sodium). I'm struggling to find anything other than huge 20 feet tall industrial ones, but thought I'd throw this into the mix. Having said that, just found this http
/process-equipment.globalspec.com/le...hange_equipmentAnother idea is to mimic the behaviour of a catalytic convertor on a car. These capture heavy metals from the exhaust fumes. But how do they work? Are there water based equivalents? Investigations for later I feel, unless anyone knows?
A third alternative is supplementing RO water. Our salty friends need not worry about the fact that the process of reverse osmosis removes practically everything from tapwater (with the notable exception of chloramine under most circumstances I might add), because they dose it all back in with their salt. I wonder if there are similar additive products available, only without the actual salt.
@ Bloozoo, would you like us to pm you if/when we find an alternative, so you can sell your API shares in time? (Just pulling your leg, no offence intended).
@ Saed, Maybe an e-mail to the manufacturers of Tetra Aquasafe is in order. Can't see them giving it up though! Must do some other stuff now.
Bloo
~ I learn something new ~ ~~~~ every day ~~~~
Thanks Jules 
but I have my eye on this thread as it is, and find it very interesting ! I'm always open to alternative ideas, but it just needs to be feasible for me. If I could go RO, I would - but I can't. Space and all that - cost is the smallest factor). That said, I probably have a life long supply of API Stress Coat already !
but I have my eye on this thread as it is, and find it very interesting ! I'm always open to alternative ideas, but it just needs to be feasible for me. If I could go RO, I would - but I can't. Space and all that - cost is the smallest factor). That said, I probably have a life long supply of API Stress Coat already !
Saedcantas
Fishaholic
Me too Bloo! My housemate wanted to borrow some aqualibrium salts from me so I said help yourself to my drawer of fishy goods... He proclaimed that I had enough stress coat to dechlorinate an Olympic swimming pooll 
andywg
Bored into leaving
Cats on cars rely on precious metals such as platinum to capture the heavy metals.
An interesting point is that on a global scale, cats are bad for the environment, they make cities cleaner, but the actual effort of mining and refining the materials that make up a cat cause more polution than they will save. My old Engineering Science teacher used to hate the way they were touted as being these super great things for the environment.
My biggest problem with RO is the waste, though I'm not on a meter yet so it is always a possibility...
An interesting point is that on a global scale, cats are bad for the environment, they make cities cleaner, but the actual effort of mining and refining the materials that make up a cat cause more polution than they will save. My old Engineering Science teacher used to hate the way they were touted as being these super great things for the environment.
My biggest problem with RO is the waste, though I'm not on a meter yet so it is always a possibility...
I've had this e-mail. It's a collective effort from some of the scientists at one of the UK water companies.
This suggests that the Sodium Thiosulphate common in most Dechlorinators is NOT going to be effective at removing heavy metals. Does this cast some doubt over those dechlorinators that claim to remove heavy metals using Sodium Thiosulphate, and suggest why not all those that use Sodium Thiosulphate claim to remove heavy metals?
Further, it suggests that it reduces the oxygen available in the water (although this would be replenished with time one would suspect), once it runs out of Chlorine to bind with. In non chloraminated, or low chlorine, supplies, this could be an issue. Perhaps this is the reason some dechlorinators suggest you stand the water for a day after treatment before adding it?
Does anyone out there have a dissolved oxygen test kit that they can do a quick experiment with? Tank water, tap water, and treated tap water?
Either way, chemical treatment doesn't seem to be the panacea that it might at first glance seem to be.
This suggests that the Sodium Thiosulphate common in most Dechlorinators is NOT going to be effective at removing heavy metals. Does this cast some doubt over those dechlorinators that claim to remove heavy metals using Sodium Thiosulphate, and suggest why not all those that use Sodium Thiosulphate claim to remove heavy metals?
Further, it suggests that it reduces the oxygen available in the water (although this would be replenished with time one would suspect), once it runs out of Chlorine to bind with. In non chloraminated, or low chlorine, supplies, this could be an issue. Perhaps this is the reason some dechlorinators suggest you stand the water for a day after treatment before adding it?
Does anyone out there have a dissolved oxygen test kit that they can do a quick experiment with? Tank water, tap water, and treated tap water?
Either way, chemical treatment doesn't seem to be the panacea that it might at first glance seem to be.
fishboytoo
Fish Fanatic
Hi Jules
This is an interesting topic and I've found this thread to be very informative.
But, if you'll pardon the question, what's the obsession with removing all the metals from your water supply?
If you've established that tap water conditioners aren't particularly effective in removing them, and I think you have, then they must be present at their "normal" levels in your water already. That is, unless you are using RO and re-mixing with tap water thereby diluting them to inconsequential levels. Either way, is there presently some harm to your fish or are they not behaving normally? Why are you on this mission to eliminate them completely?
If most waters contain heavy metals, not sure if they do but lets assume so, and water conditioners do not remove them then most people are keeping fish in water with heavy metals. If most waters don't have metals, then most people have no need to remove what's not there! Stands to reason that there's not much harm in the status quo. Speaking from my personal experience, I'm not aware of any problem with my fish and I make no special efforts to remove metals. I was under the impression that my water conditioner was doing this, before I read this thread.
Perhaps I missed something in this thread, and the answer is fairly obvious. I did catch the part about metals affecting schooling and feeding behaviours, and fish generally being way more sensitive to them than humans. I shall go back a re-read it after I've had some caffeine. I just don't think it's pragmatic to go through all the time and expense to deal with something that doesn't seem to be a problem in the first place. Please, correct me if I have this all turned around.
This is an interesting topic and I've found this thread to be very informative.
But, if you'll pardon the question, what's the obsession with removing all the metals from your water supply?
If you've established that tap water conditioners aren't particularly effective in removing them, and I think you have, then they must be present at their "normal" levels in your water already. That is, unless you are using RO and re-mixing with tap water thereby diluting them to inconsequential levels. Either way, is there presently some harm to your fish or are they not behaving normally? Why are you on this mission to eliminate them completely?
If most waters contain heavy metals, not sure if they do but lets assume so, and water conditioners do not remove them then most people are keeping fish in water with heavy metals. If most waters don't have metals, then most people have no need to remove what's not there! Stands to reason that there's not much harm in the status quo. Speaking from my personal experience, I'm not aware of any problem with my fish and I make no special efforts to remove metals. I was under the impression that my water conditioner was doing this, before I read this thread.
Perhaps I missed something in this thread, and the answer is fairly obvious. I did catch the part about metals affecting schooling and feeding behaviours, and fish generally being way more sensitive to them than humans. I shall go back a re-read it after I've had some caffeine. I just don't think it's pragmatic to go through all the time and expense to deal with something that doesn't seem to be a problem in the first place. Please, correct me if I have this all turned around.
Bloo
~ I learn something new ~ ~~~~ every day ~~~~
Because they are indeed harmful to fish and quite lethal to shrimp.
fishboytoo
Fish Fanatic
Okay, fair enough, I don't doubt that they are.
I'm still wondering, if people aren't effectively removing them with water conditioners or using RO are they having problems with deaths/behaviour. As I said,
Perhaps my water doesn't have significant levels or perhaps I have a problem but am not aware of it. This is what I was wondering, is there something I should be looking for. I also keep shrimp(ghost,amano, and red nose), and they seem to be thriving.
I guess I'm looking for evidence/symptoms of a heavy metal problem, ie.
to begin with. If there are none, then I would say I don't have a problem, and quite possibly neither do many other people. My thinking is along the lines of "don't fix it if it isn't broken", if you follow me.
@ fishboytoo
Overall, I am exploring the possibility that dechlorinator is a waste of time and money, for those who live in an area with no chloramines and have the facility to stand their water for 24 hrs to evaporate the free chlorine.
However, heavy metals in your domestic supply (which are not present in the fish's natural environment and are established to be harmful), is the only hurdle preventing me from being safe in my mind that this is correct.
The possibility that dechlorinators may not remove heavy metals, would mean that there are fishkeepers out there thinking they are preventing their fish from heavy metal exposure, when they are not.
Hence the effort to find alternative means of treating them.
Overall, I am exploring the possibility that dechlorinator is a waste of time and money, for those who live in an area with no chloramines and have the facility to stand their water for 24 hrs to evaporate the free chlorine.
However, heavy metals in your domestic supply (which are not present in the fish's natural environment and are established to be harmful), is the only hurdle preventing me from being safe in my mind that this is correct.
The possibility that dechlorinators may not remove heavy metals, would mean that there are fishkeepers out there thinking they are preventing their fish from heavy metal exposure, when they are not.
Hence the effort to find alternative means of treating them.
Similar threads
Most reactions
-
335 -
200 -
144 -
144 -
123 -
122 -
120 -
106 -
102 -
96 -
83 -
78 -
76 -
A
56
-
50