So What Am I Lacking Here?

[watertown28]

Yeah got a 75 gallon that I put some plants in. Seem to be doing will but now I noticed some yellowing, and as I was cleaning some of that brown algae off I noticed that my sword was more or less becoming transparent.
 
Whats in this is some java, those seem to be doing okay... but the sword has at least one leaf that is like its half eaten, along with some yellowing of the tips.
 
The westeria ( sp ) seems to be turning yellowish green on the new growth.
 
Now, for fritz, I had just added a cap abouts of the Aqueon plant food. I think like 15 ml, the last spot marking on the cap.
 
That is about it. I been reading and trying to figure out what this is, but I like some input on this too from people who can see it right off.
 
Im thinking it might be an iron issue. I have some tetra 0-0-3 plant food, had just 3% posh and then .19% water soluble Iron.
 
I also have some API root tabs... but have been hesitant on adding them because I hear horror stories on them, but now that I think about it, now that I went sand that it should not get dissolvedright into the water .
 
One more thing, It might be because I have been messing around and finally getting the sump going, of which is 40 gallons... could this have made it all go wack too? Lights on this is 2x 100CFL and 2x 75CFLs.
 
With that said, what do you guys recommend for the time being with what I got handy?
 
 

 

 

 

[TallTree01]

My Amazon sword does this too, even with strng lights, daily and weekly fertilization and root tabs. The only thing I don't do is CO2. Maybe that's it??

 

[Byron]

First off, we may have two very different scenarios here, between the situation in post #1 (watertown28) and post #2 (TallTree01).  One has to find the balance between light intensity and nutrients, which includes more than just iron and CO2.
 
The stronger the light intensity, the more nutrients must be available, and without diffused CO2 this could become the limiting factor.  But I would need to know the light specs and exactly what fertilizers are being added.
 
Watertown, the lighting specs here too please.  From the photos, I am wondering about the intensity and the spectrum.  As for nutrients, these occur in fish foods and through water changes, so obviously the more fish in the aquarium the greater will be the minerals and organics (and CO2 is mainly produced by the breakdown of organics in the substrate).  As you have the root tabs, I would use them but only for the swords.  Echinodorus plants are heavy feeders, and substrate tabs will always improve growth provided the light is adequate.  I've not used the API but one per sword plant should be sufficient, replaced according to the instructions on the package.
 
When algae increases, it is a sign that the balance is out.  Generally this means the light is too bright (intense), or the duration may be too long, in balance with the nutrients.  But I have also increased algae by excess nutrients, so it works both ways.
 
Byron.

 

[watertown28]

First off, we may have two very different scenarios here, between the situation in post #1 (watertown28) and post #2 (TallTree01).  One has to find the balance between light intensity and nutrients, which includes more than just iron and CO2.
 
The stronger the light intensity, the more nutrients must be available, and without diffused CO2 this could become the limiting factor.  But I would need to know the light specs and exactly what fertilizers are being added.
 
Watertown, the lighting specs here too please.  From the photos, I am wondering about the intensity and the spectrum.  As for nutrients, these occur in fish foods and through water changes, so obviously the more fish in the aquarium the greater will be the minerals and organics (and CO2 is mainly produced by the breakdown of organics in the substrate).  As you have the root tabs, I would use them but only for the swords.  Echinodorus plants are heavy feeders, and substrate tabs will always improve growth provided the light is adequate.  I've not used the API but one per sword plant should be sufficient, replaced according to the instructions on the package.
 
When algae increases, it is a sign that the balance is out.  Generally this means the light is too bright (intense), or the duration may be too long, in balance with the nutrients.  But I have also increased algae by excess nutrients, so it works both ways.
 
Byron.

 
I wish I had taken a picture before I cleaned the glass but the algae line was starting like 10 inches below the water line. So it was clean nice glass, and then it was like a straight line all around.
 
As for the lighting on this tank ( timer of course ) I have 2x100 watt CFLs and 2x 75 watt CFLs. They are daylight, 6500K..... Time on is around 230pm to 11pm... so lets say 8 and a half hours of light.
 
Fish load:
2x German Blue rams
6x zebra loaches
3x Dino
 
Okay I put a tab near about 3 inches away from the sword...kinda in a dead spot we will see if that works.
Refreshed the CO2, made a new one ( has 2 DIY co2 bottles ).
 
I feed once a day if that sometimes. I feed sparingly.
 
Should I also use the liquid fritz too even after the tabs? So the Amazon is the root feeder and then the others are taking from the water column?
 
Forgot to add that I did do a total change of the substrate too. I went from gravel to sand as you can see. I also redid the sump, got an actual tank now.
 
Light set up:
 

 

[Byron]

That seems quite a lot of light intensity (spectrum is fine), and almost certainly the source of the algae issue.  As I'm totally unfamiliar with the type of lighting, I would like someone with direct experience to chime in here.  So I'll move on for the moment.
 
The Aqueon liquid seems like it should work.  But here we come to another issue, and that is it may be too little for the light, and you mention CO2 diffusion.  The basic liquid fertilizers tend to work best in low-tech or natural setups, as supplements, rather than having to supply most of the nutrients to balance the higher light and CO2.
 
The brown on the plant leaves...does that easily wipe off with your fingertips?  Or not?
 
Byron.

 

[watertown28]

That seems quite a lot of light intensity (spectrum is fine), and almost certainly the source of the algae issue.  As I'm totally unfamiliar with the type of lighting, I would like someone with direct experience to chime in here.  So I'll move on for the moment.
 
The Aqueon liquid seems like it should work.  But here we come to another issue, and that is it may be too little for the light, and you mention CO2 diffusion.  The basic liquid fertilizers tend to work best in low-tech or natural setups, as supplements, rather than having to supply most of the nutrients to balance the higher light and CO2.
 
The brown on the plant leaves...does that easily wipe off with your fingertips?  Or not?
 
Byron.

For the most part yes. I believe its that diatoms type algae. Thankfully its not that brown hair stuff because I have had to deal with that before and its horrible and hard to get rid of.
 
As for the intensity I have no problems replacing the bulbs with something a bit lower like going straight 4x75 watt or 4 x 60 watt. I did my best on researching the CFLs people do use them with those metal covers.... but I am newbie to plants so....This is kinda a shot in the dark too.
 
Edit, the CFLs are rated at 100W or 75W. Kinda like how the florescent tubes are rated.

 

[Byron]

I would prefer other members with experience with this lighting to comment, rather than my guessing and leading you astray.  I am inclined to think the light may "seem" higher due to the wattage but actually be lower...I use screw-in CFL bulbs over my 10g and 20g and they are 10w which supposedly equates to 40 watts each which would mean 80w over these tanks...but they are not that bright.
 
The diatoms would also suggest lower light.  How long have you had these plants, and how long has the tank been set up with this lighting?
 
[Will get back to this tomorrow, will be signing off shortly, just so you know.]
 
Byron.

 

[watertown28]

I would prefer other members with experience with this lighting to comment, rather than my guessing and leading you astray.  I am inclined to think the light may "seem" higher due to the wattage but actually be lower...I use screw-in CFL bulbs over my 10g and 20g and they are 10w which supposedly equates to 40 watts each which would mean 80w over these tanks...but they are not that bright.
 
The diatoms would also suggest lower light.  How long have you had these plants, and how long has the tank been set up with this lighting?
 
[Will get back to this tomorrow, will be signing off shortly, just so you know.]
 
Byron.

 
 
The plants are about 3 to 4 weeks old.
 
The tank has had this light for months lol. Now the stock has gone up of course... had just 1 ram with 2 dinoes, the other fish are new additions.
I was having that diatoms issue before, so I put some rowa phosphate remover going in this.
 
I do agree I would too like someone here that has experience with the CFLs too. I found a interesting post  somewhere that I can PM you if you wish on it, I dont know how they are around here linking other forums. A person measured the PAR with an assortment of CFLs with different  reflectors and all that fun stuff. Its rather interesting. It pretty much tosses out the whole "WPG" rule out the window.
 
Another quick edit, went down in the basement to do something, noticed filter pad was abnormally brown ( just changed that ) and then looked at the tank, and the common issue with those tabs had been realized by me also, made my water cloudy. Awesome.

 

[Byron]

The API tabs are said to cause a mess if disturbed.  I have used Flourish Tabs for several years without this sort of issue, and previously I used Nutrafin's Plant-Gro Sticks that were amazing but I have not seen these anywhere locally or online since 2010 and fear they are likely not available any longer.  Back in the 1990's I used a German product that also may not be available now, I cannot remember the name but it came in green and yellow packaging.  None of these caused any issues.  Some aquarists make their own, using Osmacote (sp?) I believe.
 
To the diatoms, this is usually due to organics in low light.  It is often seen in new tanks, until the biological system is established in about three or so months.  After that, low light, high nutrients especially silicates can cause it.  Silicates are sometimes present in tap water.  If it is just the light, this should rectify with stronger lighting.
 
PM me the link to the post on PAR and I'll take a look, it might give me something more concrete.
 
Byron.

 

[watertown28]

The API tabs are said to cause a mess if disturbed.  I have used Flourish Tabs for several years without this sort of issue, and previously I used Nutrafin's Plant-Gro Sticks that were amazing but I have not seen these anywhere locally or online since 2010 and fear they are likely not available any longer.  Back in the 1990's I used a German product that also may not be available now, I cannot remember the name but it came in green and yellow packaging.  None of these caused any issues.  Some aquarists make their own, using Osmacote (sp?) I believe.
 
To the diatoms, this is usually due to organics in low light.  It is often seen in new tanks, until the biological system is established in about three or so months.  After that, low light, high nutrients especially silicates can cause it.  Silicates are sometimes present in tap water.  If it is just the light, this should rectify with stronger lighting.
 
PM me the link to the post on PAR and I'll take a look, it might give me something more concrete.
 
Byron.

Alright Ill pick up some of the florish from amazon then. Being the swords and that other unknown plant at least is root feeders I should have them.
 
It might be also the zebra loach that went digging in that area too... they seem to like to dig and blow the sand though the gills for whatever reason. This would not shock me . I swore I put it in at least an inch...
 
As for the SiO2 and PO4, that is why I got the GFO (Rowa phos ), to combat that.
 
I do however think I did a shock to the system when I redid the sump but that is only 2 days old. The Bio media of course I am using the same ones from the old sump so that should not be huge. The one thing that I do tend to think is that it might be due to me removing all the gravel and switching all to sand. Might have ( most likely really ) messed up the Bioload there doing that.
 
OO and then while I am thinking of it, now only putting one tab in the sand, when i order the florish tablets, can I add more then? Also, what about the liquid stuff should I still add that too even with the tab?

 

[Byron]

All of these issues can be contributing factors, no question.  The other thing to keep in mind is that plants take time to settle into a new environment, and any changes made during this initial period will usually be much more detrimental than if the plants had been in that environment for several months.  Changes in temperature, pH, GH, light will impact plants.
 
I checked the planted tank thread...so you are using the basic CFL bulbs as shown there?  I use these over my 10g and 20g tanks.  But I've never used them on larger tanks as in my view they are probably not efficient [I'll come back to this].  Fluorescent lighting is I think more effective and efficient (energy wise) over larger tanks.  My 70g has two T8 48-inch tubes, one 6500K and one 5000K.  My 90g (4-foot) and 115g (5-foot) each have the same lighting.  To control algae, the duration on the 90g and 115g is eight hours daily, and on the 70g only seven.  I seem to have sufficient nutrients (including natural CO2) to drive photosynthesis for most of this period.  I use fertilizers, liquid in all tanks, and the substrate tabs for the larger swords, red tiger lotus and Aponogeton plants.
 
Watts is not a reliable measure of light intensity unless you are comparing identical tubes/bulbs.  For example, with your CFL bulbs, in 6500K, a 13w will obviously be slightly more intense light than a 10w.  But comparisons like this only work with identical bulbs/tubes.  The fellow in that other thread correctly noted this.  But, watts does measure the amount of energy a bulb or tube uses to produce its light.  So considering my 70g, my two T8 tubes are 32w each, for 64 watts total, and without CO2 diffusion this is adequate for low and moderate light plants.  With your present lighting, you are using 350 watts of energy compared to my 64w.  I cannot say if this is going to be giving you less or more light than what I have, and that is where I am stuck.  The slides in that linked thread might help, though I still don't know what he might consider low or high light compared to my use of the terms.  What I think I can say with certainty is that two T8 tubes over your 75g would give you decent light (with appropriate tubes) for the plants mentioned.  I just can't compare your lighting to this, as I've no idea about PAR for what I have.  I basically developed as an aquarist with T8 lighting (formerly T12) and I know what will or won't work with this.  I tried T5 once, and after a week it went back as it was way too bright for the poor fish, and that is another consideration.
 
Byron.

 

[watertown28]

One quick question Byron ( BTW I am extremely thankful for your help on this )... should I add a dose of the liquid frits too? Even though I used the one tab.
 
BTW I am ordering that other type of tab you recommended.

 

[Byron]

One quick question Byron ( BTW I am extremely thankful for your help on this )... should I add a dose of the liquid frits too? Even though I used the one tab.
 
BTW I am ordering that other type of tab you recommended.

 
When planted tanks need nutrient addition (= fertilization) the first place to start with is a complete liquid.  Plants can only take up nutrients from the water, be it via leaves or roots.  No difference here from terrestrial plants actually.  So the nutrients have to get into the water.  Some are taken up by both roots and leaves, some more by either, and some only via leaves.  So a liquid fertilizer in the water supplies all requirements.  Beyond this, one sometimes has to twiddle with specific nutrients, such as iron or trace minerals, depending upon the water (the prime source of the "hard" minerals) and fish load and feedings.
 
I have tanks that only get the comprehensive liquid fertilizer.  I have others that also get this plus additional trace elements.  Then I have tanks that also have substrate tabs for the larger plants as I mentioned in my last post.  I have grown the same plants with just the liquids, and with these plus tabs, and there is no doubt that the tabs improve plant growth for certain plants.  But here is where your light intensity factors in; if the light is not up to the level of nutrients, or is greater than the nutrient supply for the specific plants, it can affect plant growth, and cause algae.
 
Here I would recommend a comprehensive supplement.  I am presently using Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium, but another equally good is Brightwell Aquatics' FlorinMulti.  Both of these are basically complete, with the included nutrients in specific proportions which is another important aspect.  Too much of some nutrients will cause plants to shut down uptake of others.  You use very little of either of these.  I would start with one dose a week, on the day following the water change.  Some suggest splitting the dose over more than one day, and I have been experimenting with this recently to see if it makes any difference.  It is early days for this experiment, but so far it seems to be working (a slight improvement perhaps?).
 
Byron.

 

[watertown28]

 

One quick question Byron ( BTW I am extremely thankful for your help on this )... should I add a dose of the liquid frits too? Even though I used the one tab.
 
BTW I am ordering that other type of tab you recommended.

 
When planted tanks need nutrient addition (= fertilization) the first place to start with is a complete liquid.  Plants can only take up nutrients from the water, be it via leaves or roots.  No difference here from terrestrial plants actually.  So the nutrients have to get into the water.  Some are taken up by both roots and leaves, some more by either, and some only via leaves.  So a liquid fertilizer in the water supplies all requirements.  Beyond this, one sometimes has to twiddle with specific nutrients, such as iron or trace minerals, depending upon the water (the prime source of the "hard" minerals) and fish load and feedings.
 
I have tanks that only get the comprehensive liquid fertilizer.  I have others that also get this plus additional trace elements.  Then I have tanks that also have substrate tabs for the larger plants as I mentioned in my last post.  I have grown the same plants with just the liquids, and with these plus tabs, and there is no doubt that the tabs improve plant growth for certain plants.  But here is where your light intensity factors in; if the light is not up to the level of nutrients, or is greater than the nutrient supply for the specific plants, it can affect plant growth, and cause algae.
 
Here I would recommend a comprehensive supplement.  I am presently using Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium, but another equally good is Brightwell Aquatics' FlorinMulti.  Both of these are basically complete, with the included nutrients in specific proportions which is another important aspect.  Too much of some nutrients will cause plants to shut down uptake of others.  You use very little of either of these.  I would start with one dose a week, on the day following the water change.  Some suggest splitting the dose over more than one day, and I have been experimenting with this recently to see if it makes any difference.  It is early days for this experiment, but so far it seems to be working (a slight improvement perhaps?).
 
Byron.
 

Hrm, I have used florish before but that was dabbling in the use of plants....do you have to put that in the fridge once opened?
 
You think me adding the CO2 in the tank right now is doing more bad than good?
 
Tomorrow I will take a pic of the other tank, its got those mis potted plants which seem to have grown decent roots now, But sadly with the algae issue in that one ( that brown hair algae ) the time might be past from saving them.
Then I have around 6 single stems of Water Wisteria and then a little bunch of Golden Jenny, along with a few stems of java fern.
 
Now this tank I have not set up a permanent sump on it yet, right now its a tub 20 gallon. This is one I will be working on in short order. The issue I have with this one, is it was my very first tank, so when I built the stand, it was just the table, no legs

.
 
So its bottom is like 6 inches from the floor, which of course poses a challenge in the self syphining type overflow... which I have been able to get to work. The floss is extremely dirty now, and at the very least needs a good cleaning, if not a total change. Now with this one, I changed from gravel to sand, but the floss and stuff never was changed, unlike the other 75 gallon where I did it all, besides the scrubbies.
 
Anyways, I been putting that liquid fritz in it 15ml, this one also have the very same lighting as the one we are talking about. No CO2 though. the lights are much higher off the top of the tank, we should say close to a foot and a half.
 
These plants seem to be doing good... they are not turning brownish like the other ones in the other tank.
 
Now also, unlike the other one, the fish load is much higher. I have 3 loaches in that, along with a decent assortment for cories, and some 7 green fire tetras, and 7 more other fish the names escape me right now. So I would think the bio load is much more on this tank, which if I understand right, also helps greatly with the plant growth due to needing the waste to convert to plant food.

 

[Byron]

Hrm, I have used florish before but that was dabbling in the use of plants....do you have to put that in the fridge once opened?
 
You think me adding the CO2 in the tank right now is doing more bad than good?
 

 
I conversed with Seachem about the refrigeration of Flourish Comprehensive, and they suggested that once it is opened, it would be best to refrigerate if it is to be kept for any length of time.  Example, I buy the 2L jug as it is considerably less expensive per volume, and this jug lasts me about a year (I have seven planted tanks), so this is keeping it open a fair length of time.  I keep mine in my wine fridge which is cool but not frigid cold.
 
I had forgotten the CO2, sorry...this is difficult for me to answer because I am still not certain as to your light intensity.  In my situation, I have no need for CO2, because I have moderate light and the plants are not overly-fast growers (except the floating, but they get CO2 from the air).  If your light is not bright, adding CO2 is not going to have much benefit, if any, but may end up feeding algae if the plants cannot use it.  And light is what drives photosynthesis.  But in order to give you something of a better answer, my advice at this stage would be to discontinue the CO2.  After a few weeks, observe the plants' response to the changes and go from there.
 

Tomorrow I will take a pic of the other tank, its got those mis potted plants which seem to have grown decent roots now, But sadly with the algae issue in that one ( that brown hair algae ) the time might be past from saving them.
Then I have around 6 single stems of Water Wisteria and then a little bunch of Golden Jenny, along with a few stems of java fern.
 
Now this tank I have not set up a permanent sump on it yet, right now its a tub 20 gallon. This is one I will be working on in short order. The issue I have with this one, is it was my very first tank, so when I built the stand, it was just the table, no legs 

 .
 
So its bottom is like 6 inches from the floor, which of course poses a challenge in the self syphining type overflow... which I have been able to get to work. The floss is extremely dirty now, and at the very least needs a good cleaning, if not a total change. Now with this one, I changed from gravel to sand, but the floss and stuff never was changed, unlike the other 75 gallon where I did it all, besides the scrubbies.
 
Anyways, I been putting that liquid fritz in it 15ml, this one also have the very same lighting as the one we are talking about. No CO2 though. the lights are much higher off the top of the tank, we should say close to a foot and a half.
 
These plants seem to be doing good... they are not turning brownish like the other ones in the other tank.
 
Now also, unlike the other one, the fish load is much higher. I have 3 loaches in that, along with a decent assortment for cories, and some 7 green fire tetras, and 7 more other fish the names escape me right now. So I would think the bio load is much more on this tank, which if I understand right, also helps greatly with the plant growth due to needing the waste to convert to plant food.
 

 
I'll check the photos when posted, but if the plants are OK, you probably have found the balance.  More fish does make a difference, primarily because they are a major source of nitrogen for plants.  The more fish, the more ammonia/ammonium and this is what most aquatic plants prefer as their nitrogen source.  I have a 20g QT tank for new fish acquisitions, and it is lightly planted and runs permanently.  It can sit without any fish for months, but not surprisingly I always see an increase in plant growth a couple weeks after I have acquired new fish and have them in this tank for 4-6 weeks.  Undoubtedly it is the ammonia/ammonium increase.  The additional fish waste in the substrate obviously means higher organics too, and this is the prime source of CO2, so another benefit.
 
I've no experience with sumps, so won't comment on that issue.  I will say though that filtration in a planted tank does not need to be much; water circulation is the prime issue, but biological filtration is not, as this competes with the plants.
 
Byron.