Small Paludarium Tank Suggestions

[JGDrummer]

Hello TFF Members,
 
I am new to the forum and thought this might be a good place to get some advice and ideas. 
 
I recently finished and planted a vivarium/paludarium I created for some dart frogs and created it with a waterfall leading to a small "pond" area.  I'm not 100% certain on the size, but I believe its about 2.5 gallons.  I've been reading a lot online about what can be kept in that size tank, but my situation is a little different than a normal clean tank.  
 
The water has a piece of mopani and cypress that presumably are leaking a good amount of tanins.  As well, the background on 2 sides are made of foam, silicone and coco fiber, which I assume is also leaking tanins.  The water has the typical "tea" coloring, but has been much lighter in color after I installed a HOB filter with activated carbon.  The waterfall should be creating a good amount of oxygen, as well as the live plants.  It's only been set up for a few days, so I assume the cycle hasn't finished.  I used tap water with a concentrated conditioner from my local fish store they recommended.
 
I had a couple Zebra Danios in there, but they unfortunately didn't last more than a few hours... not sure what killed them so quickly.  There are currently 2 cherry shrimp and one amano shrimp that seem to be doing ok (although they climb up the waterfall a lot).
 
Here's what I have going on that might help form your advice:
 
- 2.5(ish) gallons
- tanin presence from wood & coco fiber
- KollerCraft TOM Rapids Mini Canister HOB filter w/ activated carbon
- waterfall pump cycling water and creating oxygen
- no heater, but temp stays around 72-74 degrees
- not sure on the pH, Nitrite or Ammonia levels, but presume them to be on the high side from initial water test at local fish store
- running for a few days only, 1st cycle
- plated with a couple live plants (micro sword and unknown)
- generic aquarium gravel and sand substrate with some larger rocks
 
My question is:  What kind of fish would you all recommend for this specific set up?  I'm not really opposed to any types, but do have some preferences if they will work.  I know killifish and tetras are my best bet, and would be open to anything else that would thrive in this set up.  
 
Your comments and advice are greatly appreciated!  Thanks!
 
Here are some pics:
 
Whole Tank:

 
Front:

 
Side: (the right-most two plants have been removed)

 
 
 

 

[betta fish]

Your set up is very nice but not suitable for keeping fish, there is not enough water plus it is probably loaded with ammonia which is probably why your danios died so quickly, sorry if this is not the news you are wanting to hear but it is a very nice frog set up and I would appreciate it for what it is 

 

[JGDrummer]

Your set up is very nice but not suitable for keeping fish, there is not enough water plus it is probably loaded with ammonia which is probably why your danios died so quickly, sorry if this is not the news you are wanting to hear but it is a very nice frog set up and I would appreciate it for what it is 

Hello betta fish, and thank you for the reply
 
While not arguing your statement, could I ask what would make it loaded with ammonia, and is there not a way to bring it down?  When I showed pictures to my local aquarium store a couple different keepers said it would even out in time with a cycle, and seemed to think it would be fine for small killifish.  As well, the amano shrimp and cherry shrimp seem to be fine at the moment after several days in there.  
 
Also, again respecting your opinion, I have read many articles and posts from people who very successfully keep fish in that amount of water.  What would make this setup different from theirs... capacity-wise?  Many people have stated their success at keeping anywhere from one to several animals of many different species, all in a 2.5 gallon tank.  I understand theirs might be a small glass/acrylic typical tank while mine is a different setup, but 2.5 gallons is still 2.5 gallons so to speak.
 
I understand that that small an amount of water is more susceptible to fluctuations and tougher to keep constant levels in, but still doable.
 
Thank you again, betta fish, for your reply  Just hoping for a little clarification on why you think this is unsuitable for anything at all.   

 

[betta fish]

It's just too small a body of water for anything to thrive in and as you mentioned any fluctuations will be great and the fish will be stressed, there is a difference between thriving and surviving 

 

[Byron]

First on the suitable fish...there are really none that I would put in so small a space.  While one or two very small fish might have sufficient water, the problem is that most of the fish are shoaling fish that need a group or they will be under continual stress.  The danios for instance, aside from any issues that might have led directly to their demise, must have at least six of the species, and preferably more.  But even aside from this point, danios are active swimmers, and thus the space (length more than depth) is critical.  So on both these points, they (and any other danios) would be highly unsuited to this space.
 
The nano-type fish, such as the Boraras species of rasbora, might work, but these are very soft water fish, and without knowing the parameters (GH, KH and pH) I would not even begin to suggest them.  This would still be pushing the envelope, so to speak, as 2 gallons is not really sufficient for any fish, other than perhaps a single Betta.  We have had other threads on this forum, about small tanks like 2-3 gallons, and it has always been the overall opinion that they are too small for fish.  Keep in mind that while fish may "manage" or "survive" in this or that set-up, it does not by any stretch mean that they are actually "thriving," and that is the goal of an aquarist so we would comment accordingly.  Rather than fish, I would look at more aquatic amphibians such as a small species of newt.  But, this has to take into consideration the frogs, obviously, as the two might not work together.
 
As for the ammonia question, have you tested the tank water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?  If the water comes into contact with anything organic, such as soil, this can be a source of very high ammonia, occurring from the breakdown of the organics in the soil.  This is a problem with soil substrates in planted tanks, and can last for up to a year.  If this were applicable here, it would not take very long for any fish to succumb.  Also check your tap water for these three substances; I'm not suggesting any are present, but it is always wise to test source water just in case.
 
Many years ago I went down this same road with one tank, though not as lovely as yours is (very nice work, indeed).  I found fish impossible, so I stayed with various species of newts and a couple larger-species frogs.
 
Byron.

 

[JGDrummer]

Thanks again, betta fish, for the response.
 
Also, thank you Byron for the detailed response and advice.  It is very much appreciated and taken to heart.
 
It seems this setup just isn't suitable for housing what I was hoping for.  As Byron (and others through searches) said, do you think a single betta will be ok?  What about housed with a few cherry shrimp?  I've heard the shrimp may pick on the betta's fins, but not sure if that was just one case, or a typical occurrence.  
 
I still have the option to fill that portion of the tank with more substrate and plants and just get rid of the "pond", but I want to exhaust all my options before I do that, as I would still love to get some sort of aquatic system in there with a fish or two.  
 
Again, thank you both for your advice and replies!  

 

[Ch4rlie]

Hmm, due to the depth of the water, I'd suggest its not really suitable for Betta Splendens either, sorry to say. BTW its more likely the betta will eat cherry shrimps, very rarely will cherry shrimps attack fish fins, if ever at all. The only instance that this may be possible is with large amano shrimps.
 
Seems we're shooting down your ideas and wish there really was some suitable fish specie for this small volume of water in this set up. I'd suggest shrimps and snails being your best bet for this, but bear in mind shrimps are finicky about water parameters, so a cycled established tank is a must for shrimps of any sort tbh.
 
I know very little about vivariums and what can be done, even less about dart frogs tbh
Perhaps you can add, if suitable, small geckos if the vivarium is large enough with suitable habitat etc. Thats just a guess tbh.
 
Real nice set up by the way, looks real good

 

[Byron]

My mention of a single Betta was thinking more of the volume, not so much this exact set-up, so sorry I didn't make that clearer.  I wouldn't suggest a Betta here for more reasons than just space.  My previous response pretty much eliminated any fish I think.
 
If you decide to reduce the water area, I would not eliminate it completely.  Only yesterday I spent time in the Frog gallery at the Vancouver Aquarium and in all of their frog displays housing various species of tropical frogs including several with poison dart species, they have some standing water be it ever so small.  I suspect this may help with keeping things moist.  And I think your waterfall is an excellent part of this.
 
Byron.

 

[Munroco]

Possible to raise the water level?

 

[JGDrummer]

Hmm, due to the depth of the water, I'd suggest its not really suitable for Betta Splendens either, sorry to say. BTW its more likely the betta will eat cherry shrimps, very rarely will cherry shrimps attack fish fins, if ever at all. The only instance that this may be possible is with large amano shrimps.
 
Seems we're shooting down your ideas and wish there really was some suitable fish specie for this small volume of water in this set up. I'd suggest shrimps and snails being your best bet for this, but bear in mind shrimps are finicky about water parameters, so a cycled established tank is a must for shrimps of any sort tbh.
 
I know very little about vivariums and what can be done, even less about dart frogs tbh

Perhaps you can add, if suitable, small geckos if the vivarium is large enough with suitable habitat etc. Thats just a guess tbh.
 
Real nice set up by the way, looks real good

 
Thanks Ch4rlie.  I already have an amano shrimp and a cherry shrimp in there that seem to be doing ok.  I may end up getting a couple more cherries and a golden mystery snail.  The vivarium part for the frog is pretty well thought out and should work fine as-is.  The main purpose of the tank is for the dart frogs, and I've been doing a TON of research on them.  The water was a secondary feature with the hopes of fish for the kids to watch. 
 
Thank you for the response!
 

My mention of a single Betta was thinking more of the volume, not so much this exact set-up, so sorry I didn't make that clearer.  I wouldn't suggest a Betta here for more reasons than just space.  My previous response pretty much eliminated any fish I think.
 
If you decide to reduce the water area, I would not eliminate it completely.  Only yesterday I spent time in the Frog gallery at the Vancouver Aquarium and in all of their frog displays housing various species of tropical frogs including several with poison dart species, they have some standing water be it ever so small.  I suspect this may help with keeping things moist.  And I think your waterfall is an excellent part of this.
 
Byron.

 
Byron, thanks again for chiming in and detailing out your thoughts.  If I end up filling in the water area, I would still leave the waterfall, and it would terminate in a small rock depression.  I may set it up to create a very small, very shallow pool and build the substrate up around it.  More surface area that way for more plants and another frog.  Thanks again for the comments!
 

Possible to raise the water level?

 
Munroco - thank you too for giving some input.  Unfortunately I can't raise the water level more than maybe a 1/2" or so, which might put the total around 3 gallons.  I assume that would still be too small for anything, as most have already posted here.  The way the water table and tank has been set up is pretty much at maximum water height.  I can't let my water get high enough to saturate my substrate or it ruins the whole thing  Thanks for the idea though, I wish I could.
 
----
 
After hearing all the similar feedback, I will likely go the route of filling it in since I can't really keep any fish - which was the whole/only point of the water.  It's not for the frogs at all, just fish.  Which I can't keep in there apparently, so that makes the water a waste of space if I can't stock it.  
 
All this fish research though has me wanting to set up a fish tank now!  I used to keep lots of freshwater fish long ago including oscars, african cichlids, freshwater eels, arowanas, catfish, etc. and would love to set up a tank now.  

 

[Ch4rlie]

 

Munroco - thank you too for giving some input.  Unfortunately I can't raise the water level more than maybe a 1/2" or so, which might put the total around 3 gallons.  I assume that would still be too small for anything, as most have already posted here.  The way the water table and tank has been set up is pretty much at maximum water height.  I can't let my water get high enough to saturate my substrate or it ruins the whole thing

 Thanks for the idea though, I wish I could.

 
Thats a pity, I was thinking along the same lines as Munroco to see if water level could be raised, alas, not to be on this tank.
 
For your info, personally I would suggest 5 gallons US being the absolute minimum to keep any fish in, mainly a single Betta Splenden though this can be a hot topic amongst some keepers

 
 

 
After hearing all the similar feedback, I will likely go the route of filling it in since I can't really keep any fish - which was the whole/only point of the water.  It's not for the frogs at all, just fish.  Which I can't keep in there apparently, so that makes the water a waste of space if I can't stock it.  

 
Stands to reason just to fill it in if that holds no real benefit to your vivarium

Shame though as this makes it look real nice with the waterfall. Would you keep the waterfall so that your moisture/humidity level will be at desired levels? (remember I know very little about these set ups and I love learning new things

)
 

All this fish research though has me wanting to set up a fish tank now!  I used to keep lots of freshwater fish long ago including oscars, african cichlids, freshwater eels, arowanas, catfish, etc. and would love to set up a tank now.  

 
Some pretty big fish amongst these choices, means you will need a sizable tank to keep some of these.
 
Arrowanas for example will need at least 90 - 100 Gals US / 340 - 380 litres, the bigger the better and they will eat smaller fish and not a community fish really.
 
The minimum size we usually recommend to keep simple freshwater fish like a small group of guppies or endlers etc would be a 10 gallon tank but around 25 gallons US / 100 litres approx is a decent starter size for most new fishkeepers as the more water volume you have, the easier it is to keep water parameters at desired levels.
 
So generally when it comes to recommended tank sizes, we say get the biggest your budget and space in your home allows.
 
Research is key when it comes to specific fish species like arrowanas! Far too many keepers have fallen into the trap of buying a small tank and stocking with fish which are grossly too big for their tank when grown into adults. New fish, nice and cute little fish when very young which most LFS sells and they can grow....and grow......and grow

 

[HarpyFishLover]

Research is key when it comes to specific fish species like arrowanas! Far too many keepers have fallen into the trap of buying a small tank and stocking with fish which are grossly too big for their tank when grown into adults. New fish, nice and cute little fish when very young which most LFS sells and they can grow....and grow......and grow

Yup, I almost bought an angel fish for my 10 gallon, but then I asked how big they got. Lol.

 

[JGDrummer]

Thanks Ch4rlie.  
 
The fish I mentioned were all fish I've kept at one point, years ago.  They were all in large tanks and seemed to be thriving back then.  I've just been out of the hobby so long it feels like I'm a beginner all over again! 
 
I just saw some nice deals at a pet store on tank and stand combos for much less than I thought they'd be, so I may end up with one of those someday in the near future! 

 

[Ch4rlie]

Oh, sounds good
 
DO keep us posted on what you plan to do

 

[JGDrummer]

Well, after all the collective feedback that the water just wasn't enough to keep any fish, I took it all to heart and filled it in!  It took my brain a few days to get over the idea of not having the pond and/or any fish, but once it settled down, I now feel much better about it.  I mean, instead of fish, I get to put in some more plants and now there's enough room to add another frog, so I'm excited about that.
 
Here it is now:
 

 

 
 
Thanks for all your advice and comments!